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Offline Deneta's Man  
#1 Posted : 29 January 2016 06:33:06(UTC)
Deneta's Man

Australia   
Joined: 16/12/2013(UTC)
Posts: 12
Hi All,

I have a few Marklin 'Model Gleis' M Track switches/points on my analog layout, but they cause poor operation when running some locos across them:

If the centre track pick-up shoe on the loco is a longer one, when it crosses the middle of the switch, power cuts out due to a short-circuit being created across the transition rail and the centre studs via the pick-up.

Has anyone experienced this? Does someone have a remedy?

Thanks.
Offline SteamNut  
#2 Posted : 29 January 2016 08:07:34(UTC)
SteamNut

United States   
Joined: 11/05/2013(UTC)
Posts: 488
I have M track also with 3 way, curved and regular turnouts. The problem may be with the pickup shoe (slider) being bent or set too low.
Offline river6109  
#3 Posted : 29 January 2016 08:10:43(UTC)
river6109

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 14,712
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
Deneta, we all been there, the cause for a short can have different reasons, 1.) your slider is not level, 2.) is off centre, 3.) the centre rail is not high enough for the slider to go over the converging track. 4.) your wheels touching the centre rail and have to re calibrated. if all of these options fail, have a beer and relax and come back with new ideas.

John
https://www.youtube.com/river6109
https://www.youtube.com/6109river
5 years in Destruction mode
50 years in Repairing mode
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Offline ixldoc  
#4 Posted : 29 January 2016 10:20:52(UTC)
ixldoc

Australia   
Joined: 18/11/2015(UTC)
Posts: 220
Location: Brisbane,Australia
Hi from Oz,
If it happens with more than one loco it may not be the sliders. It is the most common cause of trouble but if you were running older locos the wheels can be a little thick as was the case with an older Hag loco I ran. I only saw the problem when I ran it in near dark and could see the shorting on the wheel. As John suggests also make sure the wheels are at the correct separation on their axles. Good luck!
Regards,
Howard.
Offline Deneta's Man  
#5 Posted : 30 January 2016 04:25:48(UTC)
Deneta's Man

Australia   
Joined: 16/12/2013(UTC)
Posts: 12
Thanks for your posts. I have two different transformers powering the tracks on each side of the switches/points. I have discovered that as the loco slider makes contact with the centre studs between the two switches/points, the power from each transformer circuit is joined and causes a voltage drop causing the loco to stop. Longer sliders are affected moreso than shorter ones, and, if the loco speed is higher, the momentum of the loco will allow it to cross with just a momentary faulter. I confirmed this by using a single transformer output across both track circuits.

Of course if I was using digital, there would be no problem...

Any ideas? I was thinking that it might be best to isolate and switch power to the tracks when crossing the switches/points using a relay. But then there would have to be a point on the tracks where the loco would have to cross from cicuit to the other during running.

Any ideas? Thanks, Mark.
Offline GLI  
#6 Posted : 30 January 2016 05:49:40(UTC)
GLI


Joined: 28/02/2011(UTC)
Posts: 82
Location: Lithgow NSW Australia
Hello Mark

Its been many years since I have used Marklin AC analogue, but it seems to me that there should be no voltage loss when a loco passes from one one power supply to another unless the power supplied to the track is out of phase, This will cause a short circuit and cause the loco to stop as you describe.

If this is the problem, it can be solved by simply removing the power supply wires from their sockets on one of the transformers. and reversing them. I had this problem many years ago when I first used two transformers to power a layout.

Regards
Geoff
Offline PJMärklin  
#7 Posted : 30 January 2016 06:17:54(UTC)
PJMärklin

Australia   
Joined: 04/12/2013(UTC)
Posts: 2,210
Location: Hobart, Australia
Originally Posted by: Deneta's Man Go to Quoted Post
Thanks for your posts. I have two different transformers powering the tracks on each side of the switches/points. I have discovered that as the loco slider makes contact with the centre studs between the two switches/points, the power from each transformer circuit is joined and causes a voltage drop causing the loco to stop. Longer sliders are affected moreso than shorter ones, and, if the loco speed is higher, the momentum of the loco will allow it to cross with just a momentary faulter. I confirmed this by using a single transformer output across both track circuits.

Of course if I was using digital, there would be no problem...

Any ideas? I was thinking that it might be best to isolate and switch power to the tracks when crossing the switches/points using a relay. But then there would have to be a point on the tracks where the loco would have to cross from cicuit to the other during running.

Any ideas? Thanks, Mark.


Hello Mark,


I did wonder about why power to your loco fails when the slider bridges the centre studs of the two adjacent transformer circuits:

If I may be so bold as to offer an opinion, from my old analogue days I recall that Märklin advises :

1) it is prudent to have a centre-stud ("active", red, "B" power line) isolator in the track join where two transformer circuits join and also that

2) it is appropriate to ensure the two transformers are working off the same "active" and "neutral" lines of your household power source even when isolators are installed (because of the common "earth" = neutral, by the two running rails is still joined).

(2) is particularly possible to happen in Australia when an imported starter set transformer European plug is changed to an Australian plug (in the past also of marginal concern re 230V vs 240V, now less of a power issue since both countries now on 230V, 50Hz standard)
I have looked through my old catalogues but cannot find the illustration I remember that shows how to check for this by seeking to power a Märklin light bulb between the two "active" (red "B" plug outlet) rail power outputs of the two transformers (NOT on the 230 volt side of the transformer) and the bulb should not light up. If it does light then the two transformers have opposite active/neutral household power source relationship.
However one would expect that if this was the case then the whole area of the two circuits connected with or without centre rail isolators would not power the loco.

Originally Posted by: Deneta's Man Go to Quoted Post

Of course if I was using digital, there would be no problem...


Same issues in digital, because of power requirements of multiple locos on multiple tracks/lines, via several "booster" circuits, one still needs to isolate the circuits from one another.

Regards,

PJ

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Offline rorosha  
#8 Posted : 30 January 2016 07:22:49(UTC)
rorosha


Joined: 06/08/2014(UTC)
Posts: 57
Location: MECHANICSBURG PA USA
Originally Posted by: Deneta's Man Go to Quoted Post
Thanks for your posts. I have two different transformers powering the tracks on each side of the switches/points. I have discovered that as the loco slider makes contact with the centre studs between the two switches/points, the power from each transformer circuit is joined and causes a voltage drop causing the loco to stop. Longer sliders are affected moreso than shorter ones, and, if the loco speed is higher, the momentum of the loco will allow it to cross with just a momentary faulter. I confirmed this by using a single transformer output across both track circuits.

Of course if I was using digital, there would be no problem...

Any ideas? I was thinking that it might be best to isolate and switch power to the tracks when crossing the switches/points using a relay. But then there would have to be a point on the tracks where the loco would have to cross from cicuit to the other during running.

Any ideas? Thanks, Mark.


Märklin makes (made) just what you need, Märklin 385550, a small hump that is installed between track sections to lift the slider, to prevent it from contacting both supply circuits at the same time.

There was a brief discussion about it in 2004.

https://www.marklin-user...f_postsm1245_385550.aspx
Offline PJMärklin  
#9 Posted : 30 January 2016 07:46:05(UTC)
PJMärklin

Australia   
Joined: 04/12/2013(UTC)
Posts: 2,210
Location: Hobart, Australia
Originally Posted by: rorosha Go to Quoted Post

Märklin makes (made) just what you need, Märklin 385550, a small hump that is installed between track sections to lift the slider, to prevent it from contacting both supply circuits at the same time.

There was a brief discussion about it in 2004.

https://www.marklin-user...f_postsm1245_385550.aspx



Yes, this is made, but is intended for use together with the usual third rail isolator to prevent slider contact between an analogue circuit and a digital circuit, not between two analogue circuits, as noted in the quoted 2004 posts.


UserPostedImage


UserPostedImage


Regards,

PJ
Offline SteamNut  
#10 Posted : 30 January 2016 09:37:03(UTC)
SteamNut

United States   
Joined: 11/05/2013(UTC)
Posts: 488
You can check the polarity of your two transformers by taking a 16v bulb and touching the center rail (stud) on each side where you insolated between the two transformers. If it burns bright you have to turn the plug around. This is explained in the old Marklin handbook. Hope this helps.
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Offline PJMärklin  
#11 Posted : 30 January 2016 10:30:11(UTC)
PJMärklin

Australia   
Joined: 04/12/2013(UTC)
Posts: 2,210
Location: Hobart, Australia
Originally Posted by: SteamNut Go to Quoted Post
You can check the polarity of your two transformers by taking a 16v bulb and touching the center rail (stud) on each side where you insolated between the two transformers. If it burns bright you have to turn the plug around. This is explained in the old Marklin handbook. Hope this helps.



Found, thank you


UserPostedImage


UserPostedImage
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Offline rorosha  
#12 Posted : 30 January 2016 21:24:41(UTC)
rorosha


Joined: 06/08/2014(UTC)
Posts: 57
Location: MECHANICSBURG PA USA
Originally Posted by: PJMärklin Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: rorosha Go to Quoted Post

Märklin makes (made) just what you need, Märklin 385550, a small hump that is installed between track sections to lift the slider, to prevent it from contacting both supply circuits at the same time.

There was a brief discussion about it in 2004.

https://www.marklin-user...f_postsm1245_385550.aspx



Yes, this is made, but is intended for use together with the usual third rail isolator to prevent slider contact between an analogue circuit and a digital circuit, not between two analogue circuits, as noted in the quoted 2004 posts.


Regards,

PJ


There is no reason that it can not be used in full analog operation as a safeguard against transformers being out of phase. It will not have any detrimental effects, unless using a double pickup construct, where the pickups are not isolated from each other. In the past I have used the 'K' track versions on analog layouts that I have helped construct. Unless the plugs are removed from the AC power cord and replaced by polarized plugs, or hardwired together, it is an inexpensive protection measure. As the old adage goes, "An ounce of prevention, is worth a pound of cure."

Plugs can always get accidentally disconnected, and unpolarized plugs can be plugged back in "OUT OF PHASE", without realizing it, so why not a little added protection?

Rodger
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Offline PJMärklin  
#13 Posted : 31 January 2016 05:51:20(UTC)
PJMärklin

Australia   
Joined: 04/12/2013(UTC)
Posts: 2,210
Location: Hobart, Australia
Originally Posted by: rorosha Go to Quoted Post


There is no reason that it can not be used in full analog operation as a safeguard against transformers being out of phase. It will not have any detrimental effects, unless using a double pickup construct, where the pickups are not isolated from each other. In the past I have used the 'K' track versions on analog layouts that I have helped construct. Unless the plugs are removed from the AC power cord and replaced by polarized plugs, or hardwired together, it is an inexpensive protection measure. As the old adage goes, "An ounce of prevention, is worth a pound of cure."

Plugs can always get accidentally disconnected, and unpolarized plugs can be plugged back in "OUT OF PHASE", without realizing it, so why not a little added protection?

Rodger



Hello Rodger,


At the risk of being tiresome...........


The original post (#1) by Mark, who I presume resides in Australia, was answered in the Australian context.

In Australia, Argentina and also in New Zealand (so their plugs will fit when they come to live in Bondi Flapper) we use a power plug (so-called "type I") like so :


UserPostedImage


These plugs are irreversible (as you say, "polarised plugs") thus the active/neutral relationship cannot be reversed and cannot be plugged back in "out of phase".
Hence it is much more pragmatic in Mark's situation if the transformers are "out of phase" to simply to reverse the wiring at the plug rather than fit the rockers in addition to isolators to the track.


Kind Regards,

PJ


And I did enjoy my travels in your State of Pennsylvania :


UserPostedImage


UserPostedImage


UserPostedImage
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Offline Deneta's Man  
#14 Posted : 01 February 2016 02:45:22(UTC)
Deneta's Man

Australia   
Joined: 16/12/2013(UTC)
Posts: 12
WOW!

I'm overwhelmed by the generosity by replies and advise of my fellow forum members! I truly appreciate all of your efforts to help me solve the problem! Thank you!

So the problem is solved! I tricked myself. I have three (3) transformers. One of the transformers is out of phase... Duh! Cursing

I didn't carry out the simple light bulb test.
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Offline Tom Jessop  
#15 Posted : 01 February 2016 06:10:29(UTC)
Tom Jessop

Australia   
Joined: 14/12/2002(UTC)
Posts: 800
Location: Newcastle NSW Australia


So where abouts in Oz would you happen to be ? There is quite a few of us old timers on this forum & most have carried thru from the old MML when that forum was in existence & hosted from The Netherlands . I'm not sure when I joined the MML but was in its early days & also when most of Oz was still on dial up web access .

I also have been caught with reversed polarity transformers in my early days & I should have known better considering I was a Senior technical officer with Telstra back then . 24 years playing with phones switchboards & exchanges then I had a career change & went playing with full size trains for 27 years in NSW , mainly hauling coal on the western coalfields but a stint on city rail on suburbans & then interurbans with the last 4 years n coal in the Hunter Valley . Now retired .


There is a unbelievable amount of knowledge on this forum ranging from the size of ballast thru to what ever computer problem you may have when using digital & everything in between . Don't be afraid to ask about problems as most of us have been there & done that .


Enjoy the trains .


Cheers Tom in Oz
Offline PJMärklin  
#16 Posted : 01 February 2016 12:41:55(UTC)
PJMärklin

Australia   
Joined: 04/12/2013(UTC)
Posts: 2,210
Location: Hobart, Australia
Originally Posted by: Tom Jessop Go to Quoted Post


There is quite a few of us old timers on this forum & most have carried thru from the old MML when that forum was in existence & hosted from The Netherlands . I'm not sure when I joined the MML but was in its early days & also when most of Oz was still on dial up web access . ....

Cheers Tom in Oz



Hello again Tom,


Me too : the old MML and dial-up.

I recall your technical days with Telecom, but did not know of the second half of your life with 1:1 trains, I am intrigued by a career change more characteristic in recent times of the "Y generation" (but it seems an annual change with them)

If I may so bold to ask (don't hesitate to invite me to mind my own business) what, in more detail, did the last 27 years in "full size trains" involve?

Regards,

Philip
Offline Unholz  
#17 Posted : 01 February 2016 14:53:42(UTC)
Unholz

Switzerland   
Joined: 29/07/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,392
Location: Switzerland
Originally Posted by: PJMärklin Go to Quoted Post

Me too : the old MML and dial-up.



Entirely off-topic: Me too! It's about time to create a sub-group here consisting of all the "early birds" (including our webmaster, of course!). BigGrin
Offline Tom Jessop  
#18 Posted : 02 February 2016 00:47:47(UTC)
Tom Jessop

Australia   
Joined: 14/12/2002(UTC)
Posts: 800
Location: Newcastle NSW Australia
Maybe this should be placed in the NMR section of who we are ? I'll let the mod's decide.



Hi PJ ;


MIND YOUR OWN BUISNESS .

Nah just kidding .


After starting in the old PMG as a trainee telephone tech in 1965 I spent the rest of my phone life in the Sydney CBD on exchange maintenance , PABX maint , Subs maint I decided that as I wasn't going to get a transfer to closer to my area of living in the Blue Mtns west of Sydney & usually about a 90 minute train journey each way I saw a ad in the paper for trainee engine drivers , Applied & got the job started in 1988 January & spent the next 15 yrs on freight haulage based at Lithgow which was only 45 to 50 minutes travel by car from home . We mainly hauled coal but also general freight & the occasional wheat train as most of these went via the south or hunter valley lines to the north . When the Government decided to sell all freight transport off to so called private enterprise {Corrigian & his Cahoots ] & Lithgow depot had started to wind down due to cut backs on freight handling leaving just coal haulage for the depot . I transferred to City rail ,did a bridging course & took up on suburban services based in Sydney for 3 years before being allowed to transfer to the Interurbans at Mt Victoria which was only 15 minutes from home . Did that for 4 years then some how they lost my medical papers which we had to have up dated every year so I sat at home for almost 3 months on full pay when I saw a ad for a English mob Freightliner who were after drivers for coal haulage in the Hunter Valley , Applied & welcomed with open arms as they had just started in Australia & were after staff . I stayed with them for 4 years ending up as a Driver Trainer . Rail work has it's up's & down's but I would consider it the best job in the world , seeing the country , change of seasons , what farms are growing , good work mates , & a reasonably good pay for the work involved [ 6 figure bracket - not as good as West Oz iron ore haulage but still very good ] . A few problems with the passenger side where you have to attend to the local idiots who want to trash trains etc & the occasional suicide incident [ I had 3 ] where the average driver would have maybe 5 or 6 if they stayed on the passenger services over their working life .



This is just a very short look at the life of being a train driver & I know there are a few others on here who are or have been in the 1/1 size of trains also.





Cheers Tom in Oz
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Offline PJMärklin  
#19 Posted : 02 February 2016 07:03:20(UTC)
PJMärklin

Australia   
Joined: 04/12/2013(UTC)
Posts: 2,210
Location: Hobart, Australia
Originally Posted by: Tom Jessop Go to Quoted Post
Maybe this should be placed in the NMR section of who we are ? I'll let the mod's decide.



Hi PJ ;


MIND YOUR OWN BUISNESS .

Nah just kidding .


After starting in the old PMG as a trainee telephone tech in 1965 I spent the rest of my phone life in the Sydney CBD on exchange maintenance , PABX maint , Subs maint I decided that as I wasn't going to get a transfer to closer to my area of living in the Blue Mtns west of Sydney & usually about a 90 minute train journey each way I saw a ad in the paper for trainee engine drivers , Applied & got the job started in 1988 January & spent the next 15 yrs on freight haulage based at Lithgow which was only 45 to 50 minutes travel by car from home . We mainly hauled coal but also general freight & the occasional wheat train as most of these went via the south or hunter valley lines to the north . When the Government decided to sell all freight transport off to so called private enterprise {Corrigian & his Cahoots ] & Lithgow depot had started to wind down due to cut backs on freight handling leaving just coal haulage for the depot . I transferred to City rail ,did a bridging course & took up on suburban services based in Sydney for 3 years before being allowed to transfer to the Interurbans at Mt Victoria which was only 15 minutes from home . Did that for 4 years then some how they lost my medical papers which we had to have up dated every year so I sat at home for almost 3 months on full pay when I saw a ad for a English mob Freightliner who were after drivers for coal haulage in the Hunter Valley , Applied & welcomed with open arms as they had just started in Australia & were after staff . I stayed with them for 4 years ending up as a Driver Trainer . Rail work has it's up's & down's but I would consider it the best job in the world , seeing the country , change of seasons , what farms are growing , good work mates , & a reasonably good pay for the work involved [ 6 figure bracket - not as good as West Oz iron ore haulage but still very good ] . A few problems with the passenger side where you have to attend to the local idiots who want to trash trains etc & the occasional suicide incident [ I had 3 ] where the average driver would have maybe 5 or 6 if they stayed on the passenger services over their working life .



This is just a very short look at the life of being a train driver & I know there are a few others on here who are or have been in the 1/1 size of trains also.





Cheers Tom in Oz


Thanks Tom,

A fascinating story


Regards,

Philip
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