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Offline Goofy  
#1 Posted : 20 December 2015 08:50:36(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 8,993
Märklin did stop upgrade MS2 and CS2?
H0
DCC = Digital Command Control
Offline H0  
#2 Posted : 20 December 2015 08:58:57(UTC)
H0


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The latest CS2 version 4.1.0(3) is not that old.

Will we see 32 functions for CS2 next year? Or will there be a CS3? Time will tell. Happy speculation.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline Goofy  
#3 Posted : 20 December 2015 09:12:18(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
The latest CS2 version 4.1.0(3) is not that old.

Will we see 32 functions for CS2 next year? Or will there be a CS3? Time will tell. Happy speculation.


I didn´t know Märklin did upgrade the latest version.
Thanks for the tip Tom!
H0
DCC = Digital Command Control
Offline steventrain  
#4 Posted : 20 December 2015 10:57:49(UTC)
steventrain

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Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
The latest CS2 version 4.1.0(3) is not that old.

Will we see 32 functions for CS2 next year? Or will there be a CS3? Time will tell. Happy speculation.


I have hear Marklin doing testing 32 function on CS2 few months ago but not hear since.
Large Marklinist 3- Rails Layout with CS2/MS2/Boosters/C-track/favorites Electric class E03/BR103, E18/E118, E94, Crocodiles/Steam BR01, BR03, BR05, BR23, BR44, BR50, Big Boy.
Offline Bigdaddynz  
#5 Posted : 20 December 2015 11:21:33(UTC)
Bigdaddynz

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Originally Posted by: steventrain Go to Quoted Post
I have hear Marklin doing testing 32 function on CS2 few months ago but not hear since.


It has been suggested that this update might be available at the end of this year........(they'd better hurry then!)
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Offline kiwiAlan  
#6 Posted : 20 December 2015 12:26:57(UTC)
kiwiAlan

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Originally Posted by: Bigdaddynz Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: steventrain Go to Quoted Post
I have hear Marklin doing testing 32 function on CS2 few months ago but not hear since.


It has been suggested that this update might be available at the end of this year........(they'd better hurry then!)


It was suggested to me at the Treff that the cs2 would have a software upgrade by Christmas possibly, to handle the 32 functions. However that was not a firm commitment, and I suspect a formal announcement will be in the 2016 New Items brochure with a timescale.

And I am surprised that the person who moans most about 'incomplete systems' because they keep getting upgraded to make them better, is moaning that it seems a long time since the last upgrade ... LOL LOL LOL

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Offline Goofy  
#7 Posted : 20 December 2015 13:35:55(UTC)
Goofy


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Originally Posted by: kiwiAlan Go to Quoted Post

And I am surprised that the person who moans most about 'incomplete systems' because they keep getting upgraded to make them better, is moaning that it seems a long time since the last upgrade ... LOL LOL LOL



I was just asking friendly about upgrades.
For one moment i thought Märklin did stop,cause if there will been new digital CSx.
What i read about yours comments now,you do moaning sick!

H0
DCC = Digital Command Control
Offline Purellum  
#8 Posted : 20 December 2015 21:21:22(UTC)
Purellum

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Cool

Originally Posted by: Goofy Go to Quoted Post


I was just asking friendly about upgrades.



No, you actually named your topic "Why are there no more upgrades", thus making readers believe that Märklin stopped doing upgrades.

first of all it is wrong, secondly it's absolutely not "friendly" or polite to start rumours this way.

Just as if I asked you: "Have you stopped beating your mother ??"

Per.

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Offline H0  
#9 Posted : 21 December 2015 17:07:53(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
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Location: DE-NW
The latest CS2 update is dated September 17, 2015. That's not very old. Too young to assume the CS2 is no longer supported.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline steventrain  
#10 Posted : 21 December 2015 19:32:01(UTC)
steventrain

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I will make contact to Marklin about next update.
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Offline Goofy  
#11 Posted : 24 December 2015 09:52:38(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 8,993
Originally Posted by: Purellum Go to Quoted Post
Cool

Originally Posted by: Goofy Go to Quoted Post


I was just asking friendly about upgrades.



No, you actually named your topic "Why are there no more upgrades", thus making readers believe that Märklin stopped doing upgrades.

first of all it is wrong, secondly it's absolutely not "friendly" or polite to start rumours this way.

Just as if I asked you: "Have you stopped beating your mother ??"

Per.

Cool


No the reason was about Steventrains question to Märklin about CSx.
That´s way i did asked friendly about Märklin did stopped with the upgrades to the CS2 and MS2.

I don´t understand why you are about to beating mother!? Blink ThumbDown
H0
DCC = Digital Command Control
Offline steventrain  
#12 Posted : 05 January 2016 15:39:35(UTC)
steventrain

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Posts: 31,601
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Email fro M.

Quote:
Dear XXXXXXX

the next update is in work. We are sorry but we can tell you no date, when this should be available.

Sincerely yours,

Your Maerklin Customer Service
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Offline clapcott  
#13 Posted : 05 January 2016 22:32:43(UTC)
clapcott

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As a general comment I believe it is an exercise in futility to simply ask a service department "when is the next update" or even "is there going to be another update".
These issues are the prerogative of product management not service. Any approach needs to be specific and not generic.

If, however , a function has been gazetted (e.g. mfx Signal configuration function or 32 function support for mSD/3 decoders) then you may very well inquire as to when this function will be available. In these cases there is an onus on the manufacture to deliver or provide a time frame. And always keep in mind that the means of delivery may not be with what we currently know . For example, 32 function support may never be available with a CS2 (As 16 functions were never available with a MS1) and the means by which this is achieved may have been a CS3.

If, as in the rare case of the mfx Signal notice, a date is stipulated (2Q2015) then there may be a case to be assertive in ones demands, and in the very least the manufacture is obliged to update the expectation if it is missed. Most companies, including Marklin last year, try to gloss over these expectations. If pressed they usually try to justify the point by saying there is a workaround - which is not a good "customer focused" attitude.

As to the contemporary inquiry, I phrased a question to Marklin service when the mLD/3-mSD/3 decoders were delivered (not when they were announced which would have been a waste of time) to the effect "When/How can I use the 32 functions that you said I could when I bought a 60976". The reply at the time was "With an update to your CS2, which is planned for the end of the year". This reference to CS2 was comforting as it means an additional outlay (e.g. for a CS3) was not immediately needed. But, as with PCs and SmartPhones, just because an app will work on an old version of hardware it can in no way be presumed to mean that it will work well, or at least as well as it would on the latest platform.

So the year has ended , but they did only say "planned" and other than the email there was no formal announcement which they can be bound by.

That said , in some jurisdictions a customer may claim a failure to delivery what was advertised, and be entitled to compensation unless a disclaimer was made (like the one about mFX signals and the delayed CS2 v4).

Plans change and it may very well be that during the development it has been found that adding more capability will cause an overall degradation below acceptable limits.
We already know the CS2 is lethargic and ergonomically stressful in its user interface, making it more so would not be appreciated at all.

So my thoughts when Goofy originated this thread were not , as have been the essence of most replies to date, that updates are to be continued to be expected, but that there comes a time when updates should not be continued, and that the investment in resource should be focused towards the future.


The issue of "bugs" ,and what a bug is or is not, is another parallel issue when it comes to any expectation of an update/fix.
Peter
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Offline H0  
#14 Posted : 05 January 2016 22:59:43(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
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Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: clapcott Go to Quoted Post
We already know the CS2 is lethargic and ergonomically stressful in its user interface, making it more so would not be appreciated at all.
MRR is a relaxing hobby - and the CS2 supports this by avoiding hectic screen changes. Wink

The Central Station 60212 became much faster with version 3.0.1 - and it also became faster with version 4.0.
The same should be possible with the CS2. They already made changes to the loco icon selection dialogue to reduce the load time.

Such optimizations are a good sign as the manufacturer shows a commitment to the platform.
Optimizations can be achieved by improving the algorithms and by re-writing high-language code in assembler.
Assembler code will be a problem for other platforms (PC and Mac versions).

Comparing the speed of the PC version with a real CS2 makes the real CS2 look somewhat old - the PC version is fast and fluent without delays.

Reduced boot time, reduced shutdown time, a faster loco selection screen with a filter - areas where improvements will be appreciated.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline Shamu  
#15 Posted : 05 January 2016 23:11:23(UTC)
Shamu

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It puzzles me that compared to the early 70's there appears to be less "machine code" programming done now days and in fact i think you would be hard pressed to find that many people competent enough to "write" the coding for something like the CS2 whereas it would have been the first option back in the day.

It surprised me when I first found out that the CS2 (and 1) was Linux based.
Sad when its cheaper to buy a new 29640 starter set from Germany than a CS2 on its own in Oz, welcome to the joys of Marklin down under .
Offline H0  
#16 Posted : 05 January 2016 23:30:15(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: Shamu Go to Quoted Post
It puzzles me that compared to the early 70's there appears to be less "machine code" programming done now days
New optimizing compilers generate much better code today compared to the compilers 30 years ago. And PC processors are so fast that assembler code is normally not needed,
It takes about 10 times longer to write assembler code that runs in maybe half the time. Improving the algorithm can lead to larger improvements and should be the first step.
And then locate the 2 % or 5 % of code that justify a new implementation in assembler code.

Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline xxup  
#17 Posted : 06 January 2016 01:09:46(UTC)
xxup

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Assembler can be a bitch to maintain.. Small bits of code are okay, but games written in assembler (the "compiler for machine code" on Vic 20 and Commodore 64 were a nightmare.. to debug.. Also machine code is specific to a machine (i.e. not portable), so it is much more difficult to port a game written for a 286 to a 386 depending on the registers that were exploited in the original code.

I last came across this problem during the lead up to Y2K where a contract programmer had written code for a bunch of 386s to control city-wide telemetry. When we tested the devices by moving the clock forward the software fell over. Correctly assuming the problem was the PC, we reloaded the software on the latest machine and it would not run at all! So we contacted the contractor for a fix and were told that it was written in machine code and would only run on a 386.. What a nightmare!

As Tom says, the computers are faster, the compilers are better and the programmers are worse.. But the bugs are at least easy to maintain.. LOL

Of course, I can't speak for the embedded stuff in Engineering - I expect that much of this is still machine code -> directly loaded... But then this is a special hell rightly reserved for electronics engineers.. Laugh
Adrian
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H0
Offline H0  
#18 Posted : 06 January 2016 08:35:22(UTC)
H0


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Location: DE-NW
A lot can be achieved without assembler.

I recently optimized a library. Before my optimization, execution time of my test program was around 16 second. When I finished, execution time was around 1.6 seconds.
Previous version was around 24 seconds, so my fellow workers had already achieved some improvements.


The CS2 takes a meditation second here and two meditation seconds there - maybe this can be reduced drastically when someone analyses those bottlenecks. But while they are busy adding new features there is no time for such optimizations.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline Goofy  
#19 Posted : 06 January 2016 09:54:06(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 8,993
One day somebody will say:"Thank you...no more upgrades!" Laugh
It has been silence with the MS2.
Will this means,that MS2 cannot been upgrades more possible?
If not less Märklin allows possible adjust mfx CV value in all CV adress( for the digital sound locomotives).
H0
DCC = Digital Command Control
Offline kiwiAlan  
#20 Posted : 06 January 2016 13:59:00(UTC)
kiwiAlan

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Originally Posted by: Shamu Go to Quoted Post
It puzzles me that compared to the early 70's there appears to be less "machine code" programming done now days and in fact i think you would be hard pressed to find that many people competent enough to "write" the coding for something like the CS2 whereas it would have been the first option back in the day.

It surprised me when I first found out that the CS2 (and 1) was Linux based.


As Tom (HO) says, madern compilers have extremely good optimisation, and in a lot of cases it is extremely hard to beat the compiler by writing assembler code.

But the other thing to remember is that there is separate hardware in the CS1 to handle the generation of the MM/mfx signal that drives the track to what runs the Linus part. Linux is used for all the user interface/file handling as it has that already built into it, and tells the track controller portion what speed loco xx should be set to. The track controller portion is quite possibly coded in assembler, but I would suspect is also coded in an HLL, but is responsive to updating the track signals because the Linux portion is handling the user interface.

Then when Marklin introduced the hardware add-on as part of the revision 2 upgrade, that PCB also has another processor on it to handle the s88 interface and send the signals to the 6050/1 booster interface.

I suspect the CS2 will have things partitioned in a similar way, so that the Linux portion is only handling user interface, but it may also be a bottleneck when t comes to dealing with s88 feedback issues where used.
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