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Offline Armando  
#1 Posted : 01 January 2016 04:54:59(UTC)
Armando

United States   
Joined: 21/07/2003(UTC)
Posts: 1,350
Location: Houston, Texas
Hi All,

I have a collection of Roco Type Est coaches, with SNCF logo in era IV olive green livery.

I've search the web for photos of suitable SNCF locomotives to go with these cars, but unfortunately haven't been able to find sufficient information.

Given that the Märklin French output is not really that wide in range, which era IV locomotive would be the most suitable for the Type Est coaches?

What other makes (Roco, Lima, etc.) have made SNCF locos suitable for these era IV coaches?

Thanks in advance for valuable input, and Happy New Year!

Best regards,
Armando García

Offline mike c  
#2 Posted : 01 January 2016 05:42:16(UTC)
mike c

Canada   
Joined: 28/11/2007(UTC)
Posts: 7,880
Location: Montreal, QC
I know that the famous line 4 Paris (Est) - Troyes - Vesoul - Belfort - Mulhouse - Basel was not electrified. The tractive power on this route was primarily diesel types 68000 and later 72000.
See: http://e.bournez.free.fr/Eurocity.html

The Compagnie des Chemins de Fer de l'Est operated until 1938 when it was integrated into the Societe National des Chemins de Fer (SNCF).
https://fr.wikipedia.org...ture_métallique_Est
http://www.trains-europe...sncf/voitures/est_gl.htm
https://fr.wikipedia.org...st_à_Mulhouse-Ville

I presume that this railway operated mainly out of Gare de l'Est. My only travels on this route were on the TEE Arbalete (1972) (Zurich-Basel-Troyes-Paris) using Mistral 56 coaches.
Photo (not mine): http://www.railpictures....hp?id=440528&nseq=69
I believe that other major trains (Arlberg Express) were upgraded to UIC Type Y around the same time.
The Est type coaches were used for local and regional traffic on line 4 and probably for domestic add-on coaches between Paris and Mulhouse on some trains. They were retired from active service at the end of the 1980s as the Corail UIC coaches came into service on line 4.

Regards

Mike C
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Offline Robert Davies  
#3 Posted : 03 January 2016 22:02:08(UTC)
Robert Davies

United Kingdom   
Joined: 20/11/2010(UTC)
Posts: 426
Location: Worcestershire, UK
Originally Posted by: Armando Go to Quoted Post
Hi All,

I have a collection of Roco Type Est coaches, with SNCF logo in era IV olive green livery.

I've search the web for photos of suitable SNCF locomotives to go with these cars, but unfortunately haven't been able to find sufficient information.

Given that the Märklin French output is not really that wide in range, which era IV locomotive would be the most suitable for the Type Est coaches?

What other makes (Roco, Lima, etc.) have made SNCF locos suitable for these era IV coaches?

Thanks in advance for valuable input, and Happy New Year!


May I ask if you are sure that the livery of your Roco Type Est coaches is actually era IV?

If you look at this page https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voiture_m%C3%A9tallique_Est you will see some pictures of Roco "Voitures métallique Est" and these are definitely in a livery consistent with Era III. SNCF olive green was around for a very long time and the letters SNCF in script at the vehicle ends is very Era III. An indicator of Era IV would be the oblong SNCF logo centred on the vehicle sides and the presence of UIC numbers.

If your vehicles do turn out to be Era III, then almost certainly the most typical motive power would have been steam, although as Mike C says, when the unelectrified lines in the Réseau Est were dieselised with types 68000 and 68500, these would also have been common performers.

Photographs of "Voitures métallique Est" show the fitment of electric-train heat cables. The classes 68000 and 68500 were fitted with train heating steam boilers (and, as I know from bitter experience, there were even some train heating steam vans on the Réseau Est) so the fitment of electric train heating implies a wider area of operation, probably later in their lives. With this in mind, suitable electric motive power in late Era III/Era IV would be any main-line SNCF electric passenger loco up to, but probably excluding, the BB 7200/15000/22200 family, so something based on the Jacquemin design (BB 9200/16000/25200) would be fine, provided it was in the blue/green electric loco livery. This family has been pretty widely modelled (e.g. Marklin 3038) but you would need to avoid the more exotic colour schemes, like le Capitole.
Robert
Era III - IV
2 x Central Station 2 v.2 (60214 + 60215)
Hardware versions 3.6 / 4.33
Software version 4.2.1 (0)
Offline Armando  
#4 Posted : 04 January 2016 00:07:28(UTC)
Armando

United States   
Joined: 21/07/2003(UTC)
Posts: 1,350
Location: Houston, Texas
Originally Posted by: Robert Davies Go to Quoted Post

If you look at this page https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voiture_m%C3%A9tallique_Est you will see some pictures of Roco "Voitures métallique Est" and these are definitely in a livery consistent with Era III. SNCF olive green was around for a very long time and the letters SNCF in script at the vehicle ends is very Era III. An indicator of Era IV would be the oblong SNCF logo centred on the vehicle sides and the presence of UIC numbers.


Robert,

Thank you for taking the time to answer my query with such great detail.

The coaches I'm referring to are identical to these new items in the Roco 2016 catalog:

http://www.roco.cc/de/pr...0-0-003002/products.html

You can click on the picture in order to zoom on it.

The ones that I have are all, without any doubt, era IV, as they bear the computerized road numbers. In addition, their revision dates read 1975 and 1978.
According to your text, probably 3038 might be my best bet, as I have it in the beautiful turquoise livery.
Best regards,
Armando García

Offline Dreadnought  
#5 Posted : 04 January 2016 12:36:49(UTC)
Dreadnought

Canada   
Joined: 24/12/2008(UTC)
Posts: 418
Location: Niagara, Ontario
What about the CC 1200 series? They were also known as "fer à repasser", or "flat iron". I think Marklin is making it with the yellow nose, which should be era IV. I believe they ran in the north, pretty much from Calais to Strasbourg and Mulhouse. I have seen pictures of them in one of the Paris stations.
The pulled passenger trains, both main line and local service. There are pictures of them pulling the internation sleeper trains, Calais to Milan or Basel for example. You could mix your SNCF with CIWL, Swiss and Italian cars. It also pulled freight.

Edited by user 05 January 2016 05:02:53(UTC)  | Reason: Spelling / typo

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Offline contrans  
#6 Posted : 05 January 2016 00:14:52(UTC)
contrans


Joined: 21/09/2008(UTC)
Posts: 15
Location: Baden
Dreadnought is right, the SNCF BB 12000 in green Era 4 livery (CC are the 14000/14100 freight engines) is a perfect fit for these "EST" coaches.
An option would be the Roco BB16000 "Jaquemin" engine, available a couple of years ago. This engine is not easy to find, and unfortunately was never issued in AC. It's hard to understand why Roco never offered a 3-rail version of this large Loco family with dozends of versions (BB 9200, 16000, 25100/25200) You could also use the Märklin BB 15000 3321 in front of these coaches, forming a local train Strasbourg -Metz.
LS Models BB16500 is an other option.
Regards, contrans
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Offline Dreadnought  
#7 Posted : 05 January 2016 05:01:03(UTC)
Dreadnought

Canada   
Joined: 24/12/2008(UTC)
Posts: 418
Location: Niagara, Ontario
Thank you contrans, for correcting me. You are quite right. There was the BB 1200 and the BB 1300. I am not sure what the difference was. Perhaps one had more power than the other?
The yellow nose was tested in the early sixties on otherwise blue locomotives. As of 1968, I think the yellow nose became quite common. The Marklin model should be a good fit for era IV. I have seen pictures of it pulling corail coaches in the early eighties, as well as the green, and international sets. From that I think you can probably put almost any era French coaches. A french magazine, "Ferrovissime" of September 2013 had a good article on them, alas only in French. According to it, the last ones ran in 1994. That should give lots of options.
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Offline mike c  
#8 Posted : 05 January 2016 17:03:41(UTC)
mike c

Canada   
Joined: 28/11/2007(UTC)
Posts: 7,880
Location: Montreal, QC
As newer types of coaches entered service, the older classes, including the Type "Est" coaches, were relegated from top level services to regional and local traffic. This began with the introduction of the UIC Y coaches and increased when the Vu/Vtu coaches and TGV were introduced. On a line like Line 4, other than certain specific train consists, the older generation continued to be used, although some consists inherited more recent material from other lines that had been replaced on that route by more modern equipment.
This is exemplified by the introduction of the Mistral 56 on the TEE "Arbalete" once those coaches had been freed up through replacement by the Mistral 69 on their original routes. The same thing occurred again as the "Arbalete" was upgraded to Mistral 69 after those coaches were supplanted by Grand Comfort and later Corail coaches. The same also occurred on Line 1 with the introduction of the "TEE Stanislas" and "TEE Kleber". The TEE "Arbalete" was originally a consist of two RGP type railcars one to Basel and one to Zurich. These were later replaced by one of the SBB/NS RAm/DE diesel trainsets.
The "Arlberg Express" was upgraded to UIC Y coaches and later to Vu/Vtu.
The "Est" type coaches were originally to be found in trains between Paris and Mulhouse (Ville) and Paris and Basel in addition to the route to Strasbourg. The line to Belfort/Mulhouse/Basel was not electrified on the majority of the route and for that reason, trains were powered by Diesels.
The other major line in the region, line 1, between Paris (Gare de l'Est) and Strasbourg, connecting to the DB via Kehl was electrified by the 1960s.
https://fr.wikipedia.org..._à_Strasbourg-Ville
https://fr.wikipedia.org...er_de_la_région_Est
http://ferroviest.archiv...ais-bale/calais_bale.htm

As some coaches assigned to region "Est" were used on through trains to other regions, it would have been possible to see some rolling stock based in this region in trains in other areas or with other types of locomotives. I do not know if this would have included trains to Calais with connections to ferries to England. I would have expected to see more DEV AO and international coaches on this route (through trains).
http://forum.e-train.fr/...topic.php?f=5&t=9126
http://forum.e-train.fr/...opic.php?f=5&t=74661
http://www.espacerails.c...wtopic.php?f=7&t=577
http://www.cheminots.net/forum/

Map: http://forum.e-train.fr/...nload/file.php?id=248105

Regards

Mike C
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