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Offline plavnostruev  
#1 Posted : 10 October 2015 15:18:08(UTC)
plavnostruev

United States   
Joined: 18/11/2004(UTC)
Posts: 756
Location: New Jersey, USA
I "discovered" that MTH is producing 3 Rail AC models several years back, but it wasn't until I got direct dealer account with MTH that I actually laid my hands on some of their US diesels, GG1 and US steamers.

I absolutely loved the detail and build quality, and the sound... simply awesome. Their GG1 was a metal once for a metal once answer to Marklin's excellent GG1 model, except MTH model has pantographs that automatically go up and down depending on direction of travel. And it is a real sight to see those huge pantos move. Diesels have heavy die-cast frame and run and sound great on any Marklin layout.

Marklin fans of American prototypes quickly caught on; there were some very rare reports of occasional trouble of some MTH diesels negotiating points, but vast majority of customers couldn't be happier with MTH AC models on their layouts.

Not so much with MTH US steamers. And it is a real shame, because MTH produces wonderful AC models of Big Boy, Challenger, Triplex and GS-4, and at a very good price point.
Main issue, of course, is MTH steamers require R3 or better curves, and Marklin operators are used to any model, even Big Boy, to negotiate R1s. As the saying goes: "Marklin fans tend to have big wallets but small layouts" BigGrin I've discussed this at length with MTH and they promised to alter their engineering to accommodate R1s.

One very intriguing upcoming model from MTH was 2-8-0 H10 2-8-0 Steam Engine.

The H10 was the last and largest in a line of Pennsy Consolidations that stretched back to 1875. Nearly 500 H10's were constructed by Alco, Baldwin, and Lima and the railroad's own shops, represented Pennsy's premier fast freight power in the era just before World War I. With a good engine crew, an H10 could hustle about 50 cars along level track, or considerably more cars in drag service hauling coal or iron ore

UserPostedImage

UserPostedImage

Best part was - it was supposed to run on R1 curves. Retail price was set at $460 and it could be had for around $400.
Well, MTH Trains has just cancelled production of their H10 AC model Confused Mad

I am still trying to get reasonable explanation as to why, though only possible explanation is weak sales of AC steamers in the past. That, or MTH just couldn't figure out R1 aspect of it, something that is hard to believe.

Question to Marklin fans of US prototypes: would you consider this AC model for your layout?

Michael



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Offline witzlerh  
#2 Posted : 10 October 2015 15:56:31(UTC)
witzlerh

Canada   
Joined: 25/09/2010(UTC)
Posts: 417
Location: Sherwood Park, AB, Canada
I am not sure exactly why it got cancelled. However one reality is this for North America.
Currently many manufacturers are now requiring pre-orders to determine if there is enough interest in a product. It is too risky to do a run, build inventory and not have it move off the shelves.

It will not be to long before you find this policy in Europe.

So the way around it is to subscribe to the news letters, or keep tabs on the website. If a model is being thought about or you want, let the manufacturer know or your favourite dealer know. This is the best way to gauge interest and more accurately predict bombs and not go there or actually proceed with a project.

Rapido is the best company that is up front with this policy. They once proposed a car variation scheme that would have required a little modification ($2,000 of tooling I'm guessing). The scheme was pushed for 1.5 years with 3 major website ad pushes with the threat of cancellation. In the end something like 2 dozen pre-orders came in....project was cancelled. Rapido tried but also did not lose money.

Another car was also cancelled due to lack of interest but the outrage of quite a few modellers, who then realized that they can no longer sit until it shows up on the dealer shelves, got off their butt and placed orders when another run of similar cars was announced. Now it was worth the expense to sell several hundred cars.

Now steam lok models are the MOST expensive investment to a manufacturer as there is far more engineering time involved. There is far more detail, best done in plastic, but then your weight suffers. Another issue is that suspension plays a HUGE part in the performance of the loks. I know a few steam modellers adjusting or adding springs to the axels so that the loks become better pullers.

So if you are interested in getting a particular model, speak up and talk with your dealer or the manufacturer.

Marklin highly relies on the MHI to gauge response. Hence, the focus on European models where stores signed up with the MHI are found.

Complaining on this forum does not help manufacturers to know what they can produce...but getting in touch with your dealer or manufacturer can possibly get you what you want.
Harald
CS2 DB & Canadian Era 3-6
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Offline mbarreto  
#3 Posted : 10 October 2015 17:25:09(UTC)
mbarreto

Portugal   
Joined: 18/02/2008(UTC)
Posts: 1,257

One thing that could help MTH in addressing 3-rail market is do the same as ESU is doing, I mean have models that can run on both systems just by inserting or removing the slider.

Most of the development used for the 3-rail version is used from the 2-rail model. MTH has few experience in H0 3-rail (although they have huge experience in 0 3-rail) so in the first models they may need to invest a bit more time in the development of HO 3-rail, but I think soon it wouldn't need too much add effort to have their locos run on both systems. Off course it increases the production cost and their market is mostly 2-rail, and MTH is interested in profit so they may not find this is a good approach too...

Currently I have on order the blue S3/6 fo HO 3-rail. I hope they will produce it.
The H10 looks great and i would like to have one, but I am not sure if I will buy one. First it depends if I will ever receive the blue s3/6 I have on order and also if I really like it.

Also, I must say that I don't like too much pre-orders as my opinion may change before the availability of the model and other more interesting model may arrive in between. Adding on top of this the uncertainty of the model being produce or have to wait several years is not so good too...

Changing a bit the subject but still related is the fact that model train vendors now (at least in Europe) have their year collection plus the summer collection and fall collection... and also some more models. Many of these items are one time series. With this approach to the market they face similar problems the manufacturers of clothes have, and then comes the need to "sales" at the end of the season. For brands like M* this is not good as it makes the value of the models go down and some customers feel that hey did a bad buy. Now seems they have a new strategy that is the weathering and make sets with the products that didn't sell as expected... Let's see the result of this strategy.

Other fact that makes things be more diffficult from model train manufacturers is the use of digital technology. They can't have ready to sale models for long in stock because in a 2 year (or so) frame the decoders of the locos maybe completely outdated...


Not easy....

Miguel
Best regards,
Miguel
Mostly Märklin H0.


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Offline Alsterstreek  
#4 Posted : 10 October 2015 17:47:32(UTC)
Alsterstreek

Germany   
Joined: 16/11/2011(UTC)
Posts: 5,666
Location: Hybrid Home
Thank you for the information.
Originally Posted by: plavnostruev Go to Quoted Post
Question to Marklin fans of US prototypes: would you consider this AC model for your layout?

Being a member of the target group: Unfortunately, no. Reasons are era and "cosmetics" (too early and too short engine).


Btw: I am eying for some time at MTH products and follow closely test reports on the forum. As reported in another thread, I once was willing to order a diesel, but did not manage to do so due to an "obscured marketing channel" ("broken link" between my local dealer and Busch of Germany).

Offline Hackcell  
#5 Posted : 10 October 2015 18:27:47(UTC)
Hackcell

Costa Rica   
Joined: 21/11/2013(UTC)
Posts: 521
Originally Posted by: plavnostruev Go to Quoted Post


Question to Marklin fans of US prototypes: would you consider this AC model for your layout?

Michael






I do purchase MTH diesels, I own 3 at this moment and I'm planning to purchase 2 more diesels and the challenger steam engine. Great detail and I've been lucky with the decoders. I wanted to purchase the Allegheny steam engine but it was cancelled due to the poor number of preorders.

Danilo Jiménez
Union Pacific and DB Cargo H0 models.
Märklin, Brawa, MTH and some Walthers cars (nobody is perfect!)
Pinball machines, jukeboxes and Horses.
Costa Rica, pura vida!!
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Offline seatrains  
#6 Posted : 10 October 2015 19:31:02(UTC)
seatrains

United States   
Joined: 22/11/2006(UTC)
Posts: 669
Location: Shoreline, WA
All, I have no MTH loks but have admired many. I spoke with their sales representative at the NMRA National Train Show in August and he was telling us that many of the diesel loks were really easy to produce for both AC & DC..He showed us the new S3/6 (4-6-2)Royal Bavarian State Railways in blue and black with DCC/two rail and it was really attractive. BigGrin
I will be sad if they drop out of the HO 3 rail AC market...
Thom
European Train Enthusiast - Pacific Northwest Chapter
4th Division, Pacific Northwest Region, National Model Railroaders Association
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Offline kiwiAlan  
#7 Posted : 10 October 2015 19:46:20(UTC)
kiwiAlan

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 8,082
Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
Originally Posted by: witzlerh Go to Quoted Post
I am not sure exactly why it got cancelled. However one reality is this for North America.
Currently many manufacturers are now requiring pre-orders to determine if there is enough interest in a product. It is too risky to do a run, build inventory and not have it move off the shelves.

It will not be to long before you find this policy in Europe.


It has been a policy present in Europe for a while.

Hornby has subscription orders.

Marklin has subscription orders (MHI, and Insider items are both reputed to be 'subscription' but seem to have over runs).

Other manufacturers have subscription orders as well.

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Offline PhillipL  
#8 Posted : 14 October 2015 02:07:42(UTC)
PhillipL

United States   
Joined: 24/12/2012(UTC)
Posts: 123
Nearly every model train producer here the US has been cancelling or delaying up to one year the release of new models. Walthers just cancelled a huge assortment of ALCO PAs and passenger coaches and Atlas has been pushing out the release dates of most of their models for up to one year. The general opinion I have seen in other forums is that these companies contract out to manufacturers in China for the production of their the locomotives and rolling stock they sell (they really make nothing themselves). The companies in China are simply overloaded with production orders which leads to delays. The other problem is that many of the US companies only have produced what is pre-ordered if those numbers are not high enough, the models are not worth having produced hence cancellations. Thank goodness Marklin, Roco and Piko are not following this business model!
Offline H0  
#9 Posted : 14 October 2015 08:14:16(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: PhillipL Go to Quoted Post
Thank goodness Marklin, Roco and Piko are not following this business model!
I remember Roco cancelling AC models because they didn't have enough pre-orders.
I remember Märklin cancelling DC models (Trix) because they didn't have enough pre-orders. Somewhere on this forum is a list of Märklin items that were announced, but never made ...
Brawa did it, too.

I cannot remember any cancelled Piko models.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
Offline mbarreto  
#10 Posted : 14 October 2015 09:54:05(UTC)
mbarreto

Portugal   
Joined: 18/02/2008(UTC)
Posts: 1,257


Seems Piko needs to start cancel production of some announcements to grow and be big like the M*, B* and R*. ;)

I don't have Piko but for what I read here they now have a very good price/quality relationship, specially in the modern electrics.

ESU seems also to have not cancelled any announcement, but I am not sure.

I don't know where Piko and ESU have their production.
Best regards,
Miguel
Mostly Märklin H0.


Offline kiwiAlan  
#11 Posted : 14 October 2015 14:56:10(UTC)
kiwiAlan

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 8,082
Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
Originally Posted by: PhillipL Go to Quoted Post
Nearly every model train producer here the US has been cancelling or delaying up to one year the release of new models. Walthers just cancelled a huge assortment of ALCO PAs and passenger coaches and Atlas has been pushing out the release dates of most of their models for up to one year. The general opinion I have seen in other forums is that these companies contract out to manufacturers in China for the production of their the locomotives and rolling stock they sell (they really make nothing themselves). The companies in China are simply overloaded with production orders which leads to delays. The other problem is that many of the US companies only have produced what is pre-ordered if those numbers are not high enough, the models are not worth having produced hence cancellations. Thank goodness Marklin, Roco and Piko are not following this business model!


Perhaps you should read down this list

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Offline BrandonVA  
#12 Posted : 21 October 2015 16:56:39(UTC)
BrandonVA

United States   
Joined: 09/12/2011(UTC)
Posts: 2,533
Location: VA
Originally Posted by: Alsterstreek Go to Quoted Post
Thank you for the information.
Originally Posted by: plavnostruev Go to Quoted Post
Question to Marklin fans of US prototypes: would you consider this AC model for your layout?

Being a member of the target group: Unfortunately, no. Reasons are era and "cosmetics" (too early and too short engine).


I am with Ak here, with the majority or Marklin or Marklin compatible US prototypes being era III or IV, I wouldn't buy it. It looks like an interesting model, but it's hard to justify modeling this era with so little else available for Marklin systems.

I have been very happy with my MTH diesel locomotives. (Now at F3 A units, 3 F3 B units and a G35). Even the GP35 is advertised for R2 or better, but runs fine on R1 as long as you have no turnout lanterns. R3+ is a killer for me, no matter how I try I always end up sneaking some R1 in somewhere or other.

To echo a post I made earlier, I would love to see more MTH 3e+ models in the era III range. I think a GP9 would b e a great model, to complement the assortment of era III engines already available from MTH and Marklin, or even some sort of switcher. If any sort of D&RGW locomotive came out I would pre-order it in a heartbeat. Yes, I know MTH made an Rio Grande Challanger, but in real life Rio Grande just leased these away since it wasn't their preferred design, so for it it doesn't count. It would really be a shame if MTH stopped producing 3e+ altogether. Heck, I would even buy a model with a blank shell for DIY painting!

-Brandon



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Offline Alsterstreek  
#13 Posted : 28 September 2018 14:04:10(UTC)
Alsterstreek

Germany   
Joined: 16/11/2011(UTC)
Posts: 5,666
Location: Hybrid Home
Had I known where my layout building adventures would take me and had I known about Colorado and Southern (C&S) Engine 641, the Climax-Leadville (Colorado) line's last operating standard-gauge steam locomotive used until 1962, I might have re-considered my negative reaction.
CS402BN.jpg
But then, had I known about my recent MTH GP35 (AC) adventure, I might not have re-considered.
Offline kimballthurlow  
#14 Posted : 28 September 2018 22:31:12(UTC)
kimballthurlow

Australia   
Joined: 18/03/2007(UTC)
Posts: 6,653
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Originally Posted by: Alsterstreek Go to Quoted Post
Had I known where my layout building adventures would take me and had I known about Colorado and Southern (C&S) Engine 641, the Climax-Leadville (Colorado) line's last operating standard-gauge steam locomotive used until 1962, I might have re-considered my negative reaction.
..
But then, had I known about my recent MTH GP35 (AC) adventure, I might not have re-considered.


Yeah,
I was a bit like that .. I think.
Once upon a time I used to be very indecisive ..... now I am not so sure!

As for MTH I don't care if they produce 3 rail locos or not - all my US stuff is 2 rail.

Kimball
HO Scale - Märklin (ep II-III and VI, C Track, digital) - 2 rail HO (Queensland Australia, UK, USA) - 3 rail OO (English Hornby Dublo) - old clockwork O gauge - Live Steam 90mm (3.1/2 inch) gauge.
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