"De onschuldpresumptie wordt voorts uitdrukkelijk vermeld in artikel 6, lid 2 van het Europees Verdrag voor de Rechten van de Mens: Een ieder tegen wie een vervolging is ingesteld, wordt voor onschuldig gehouden totdat zijn schuld in rechte is komen vast te staan."
http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Onschuldpresumptie

The train driver was responsible for the speed of the train and failed.
And what is his guilt? Negligence? Gross negligence? Intentionally breaking the speed limit? Something else?

I'm just glad you're no judge ...

Paul,

Don't get me wrong. I love Spain as a country. And my statement has nothing to do with the economic crisis itself. But the way things work and the way things are done and decisions are taken regarding the main guidelines are just pathetic. But I guess this discussion is out of the scope of this thread and I (and for sure everybody else) prefer to keep it that way.

Huh ?

You running for president of Spain ???

Good luck, whatever that mission is ... ^^

Y

The system of safety with train in Spain seems to get changed anyway.
With same ATC system like in Sweden works much better if political could help more with economic to support spanish train.
Denmark have same simular system as spanish system when it´s locomotiv driver who decides to adjustable the speed byself and not ATC system which is wrong!!
ATC system are telling to locomotiv driver to reduce the speed if trainset has to high speed.
If the driver don´t care to reduce the speed then ATC system shuts off trainset to stop.
Of course does economic makes a big difference for the spanish train...but it´s political who has responsibility by doing decides.

Sorry...but you have wrong.
You are part of the system and statement is the system.
Economic are humans decides but it´s political who decides.
The most important to take care is to avoid repeat same mistake on the train line by upgrade safety system.
But it´s still political and authority who decides by use economic as supports.

Just heard it on the radio: now they suppose he was busy with his mobile phone at the time of the accident.

Obviously he must not allow anything to distract him from his duty (and speed control is part of his duty). The train was doing more then 3 km per minute at that time, so one minute on the phone will make a big difference.

But that sounds different from earlier speculations (driving too fast intentionally to reduce the delay or just for fun as suggested by the fakebook page).

I hope this doesn't turn out to be like the crash over here in LA, a few years ago, with the Metro, when it crashed into a heavy freight. The driver was texting on his phone with other people. Unfortunately, he didn't survive, along with many others, to tell about it.

S-Bob

Now the latest information is: he wasn't busy on the phone, but they don't know what he was doing.

BS**t

That's why more and more automatic safety systems came into use.
Automatic systems may also make inattentive. Full automatic control makes the job of a train driver pretty boring.
After driving hours under automatic control (where only the dead man switch has to be pushed), the train returns to manually control just ahead of a dangerous curve.

Hi Adrian,

Good point - it works (most) of the time on our layouts!

Personally not on a high speed train (but as a customer I would expect some sort of automation)... But it's quite common in rapid transit system.

The metro in Copenhagen is a driverless train. Top speed 80km/t.



Airplanes speed/height is constantly being monitored. Ships speed in congested vessel traffic systems are being monitored. Freight companies use GPS system to monitor truck drivers speed. Why is train speed not being constantly monitored?

Brgds - Lasse

Paul, a lot of things don't work very well in Spain. Cost cutting due to the economic crisis and endemic corruption in officials and politicians ensure that much is not as it should be.

Your perception of a beautiful country is no doubt through the eyes of a tourist, to whom the country's manifold problems are often hidden by a veneer of tourism glitz.

As is always the case, whenever there are internal problems the politicians go on the offensive on whatever easy target can be found to divert public opinion. This week Gibraltar have been suffering once again the usual persecution we get on these occasions. In flagrant disregards of EU freedom of movement every singe car crossing the frontier has been stopped and searched, causing 6 hour queues to cross from Gibraltar to Spain. In Gibraltar British waters, innocent Gibraltar boat users are intercepted by armed Spanish paramilitary police. In one case last week a Gibraltar jet-skier was shot at by the Guardia Civil just metres from our shores. Spanish fishing boats, protected by Spanish Police boats, fish in our waters using illegal fishing methods, banned throughout the EU, and even in Spain!

As neighbours we are very well placed to observe how badly things are going in Spain. Yes, the country can be beautiful, the beaches wonderful, the major cities vibrant, but ask the Spanish people about their lives and you hear a different story.

Hi!
The maximum speed of the train is given as 250 km/h. IMHO this qualifies it as a high-speed train.

Media report that ERTMS is used until short before the curve where the accident did happen.
"Four kilometres before arriving in Santiago the track is not designed for high-speed trains and the speed limit is 80 kph, according to the union of train drivers Semaf.
"This is where the accident took place.
"The security system changes at that point from the European Rail Traffic Management System (ERTMS), which is used for high speed trains to the Spanish system known as the Signals and Automatic Breaking Warning (ASFA), which is used for conventional trains.
"It was the ASFA system that was in place at the time of the crash.
"The main difference between the two systems is that the ERTMS system automatically breaks trains that are going above the permitted speed limit, whilst the ASFA only does so if the train is travelling above 200 kph."

Source:
http://www.enca.com/worl...t-fatal-rail-crash-track

ASFA did not prevent the accident. If ERTMS was extended through that curve, it would have prevented the accident.
I'm assuming that the media information quoted above is correct.

One notice to think about before curve on the accident.
There is an tunnel so locomotiv driver cannot keep on the same speed before curve and ignore against warning signals.
Madness!!!

Rafael, please do not take offence. My comment was not meant to be political propaganda, but simple staement of fact. I quoted it as an illustration of how things are not all well in Spain today. If you are a Catalan I'm sure you know that some of the decisions coming from Madrid are not in the best interests of everyone.

I have no problem with the Spanish people, and I certainly don't hate anyone. I simply disapprove of the actions of certain politicians.

Jay, thanks for your support.

I want to thank you all for the really great comments on this thread.
To me this is a very valuable discussion, even if it evokes emotions; it just part of being human.
Its a very tragic accident and there is a undoubtedly going to be an in-depth investigation.

That said, its my view that one needs to look at all the circumstances and that all parties involved will have varying degrees of responsibility…. If indeed, this driver was as irresponsible as he appears to be from the news coming forward, that does not abdicate other parties involved. All kinds of questions are outstanding… and in the end, somebody's insurance policy should be forced to pay out a claim. Its painful to put a pricetag on human life, but families will have to be compensated considerably for this lose.

Did his employers not know about his "addiction to speed"?
If not what kind of review process is there?
Is it responsible to allow so many people to be in hands of one driver?
(All commercial planes have co-pilots, why not trains?)
What we read in the press, does seem to set up the driver as the fall guy to take the blame.
That would be handy for rail company and politicians, but a system has been created that appears to enable accidents.
As someone said elsewhere, companies must anticipate possible accidents, so then why are passenger cars not built with crash bars and stronger specs?

What kind of performance pressures was the driver under to be on time, so that fares would not have been refunded?

One dilemma that translates into MMR might be the interplay of responsibilities between automated control and human ability and attention spans, fatigue, stamina, emotional stability. We want to control the trains, but we also like to have as much automation as we can to take over more complex tasks.

Ultimately the company (and the attendant politicians) will have to take responsibility, even if the driver was "out-of-control" or "crazy"; they employed him, they are the ones who make the insurance contracts.

As part of our social system, trains, more than any other means of travel, are an intimate part of the urban and social landscape.

And thats one reason I love them.

My two-cents.

Mark

I too, understand that the driver was on his work cell phone asking about directions and schedules. He forgot what he was really doing, ie: driving the train. He's been through there many times before. I see auto drivers often on their phones, which is against the law here, who forget what they're doing. There have been some terrible accidents because of it, just like the train wreck in Spain. We had one of those here in LA when the train driver was texting and ran into a freight train. Many died. It's one of the hazards of modern living, I guess. The next time I'm on a plane, I hope the pilots don't do the same, and I hope they can really fly the thing.

S-Bob

I did read yesterday that drivers did got 3 times warning by using too high speed before the curve started in about 4 minutes.
The warning signal did reported in every minutes.
WTF???
The black box is showing that.

Not forgotten, but usually it takes months or years to close such a case. Speculation won't help and it takes a long time until many facts are known (and some will never be revealed).

It seems the vast majority of forum users agree with you.

Hi,

Thanks for the news updates and comments. Very interesting.
It is unfortunate that biased or incorrect information becomes broadcast.

As Peter said, the driver will live with this for the rest of his life.
I wonder if Spain has defamation laws that are accessible by ordinary people like the driver?

regards
Kimball

Interesting article on some findings not widely reported by the media:

http://www.railjournal.c...go-accident-inquiry.html

Brgds Lasse

Hello Lasse,

This always seems to happen to me!

In planning stages for a trip next year which in part involved train to Santiago de Compostela!!

Regards,

PJ