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Offline Answ  
#1 Posted : 10 October 2015 20:24:24(UTC)
Answ


Joined: 16/06/2010(UTC)
Posts: 215
Location: WI, US
Hello all,

I recently purchased a BR 44 3047 on eBay. Although I could have easily clued in by seeing the wire colors on the tender, I didn't. Intending to buy an analog 3047, I received a digital conversion instead. Mad
I believe the controller is a 60901/2, but I'm not absolutely sure on this.

Regardless, I ran the engine around in analog mode, and I'm really unimpressed by the torque of the 5-pole motor. Am I missing something here? Is this common? At full power from my transformer, (track voltage was 15 V) the engine could not pull a 9 passenger car train around a curve.

Alternatively, is conversion back to the analog reverse unit and 3 pole motor possible? I'm not sure where I could obtain these parts to do this, if it is possible.
I'm still able to return the locomotive if need be, but I really don't want to do this, since the body is in really nice shape, and the engine came with the original manual and box.

I have no intention to go to digital control, I really love the analog operation of the older trains.

Thanks,
Anatole
- Anatole
Offline Webmaster  
#2 Posted : 10 October 2015 21:02:55(UTC)
Webmaster


Joined: 25/07/2001(UTC)
Posts: 11,161
Just some stray thoughts....

If it is a Delta conversion with the last series of the Delta decoder (with 8 dip-switches on the decoder), and with the "analog 5-pole" it would really suck...

The "analog 5-pole" rotor had green edges, the "DC" motor rotor of the 6090 kits had blue edges.

A couple of pics of the decoder & motor would help to see what the hardware really is.


As a personal note, I would consider getting a newer digital kit to replace what's in the lok at the moment instead of doing a complete back to analog conversion... But that's me...
Juhan - "Webmaster", at your service...
He who asks a question is a fool for five minutes. He who does not ask a question remains a fool forever. [Old Chinese Proverb]
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Offline H0  
#3 Posted : 10 October 2015 21:07:30(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Hi, Anatole!
Originally Posted by: Answ Go to Quoted Post
At full power from my transformer, (track voltage was 15 V) the engine could not pull a 9 passenger car train around a curve.
Did the loco wheels slip or did they stop turning?
If wheels stopped turning then there is a problem with motor torque or a mechanical problem with something locking.
If wheels slipped, then make sure traction tyres are not lubricated.

If wheels slipped then another motor will not do any good.
If wheels didn't slip, try changing the potentiometers on the decoder. One is for maximum speed and could also affect the tractive effort if speed was reduced.

Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline Answ  
#4 Posted : 10 October 2015 21:46:24(UTC)
Answ


Joined: 16/06/2010(UTC)
Posts: 215
Location: WI, US
Originally Posted by: Webmaster Go to Quoted Post
Just some stray thoughts....

If it is a Delta conversion with the last series of the Delta decoder (with 8 dip-switches on the decoder), and with the "analog 5-pole" it would really suck...

The "analog 5-pole" rotor had green edges, the "DC" motor rotor of the 6090 kits had blue edges.

A couple of pics of the decoder & motor would help to see what the hardware really is.


As a personal note, I would consider getting a newer digital kit to replace what's in the lok at the moment instead of doing a complete back to analog conversion... But that's me...


Juhan,

The rotor has green edges, so perhaps it is an analog 5-pole motor.

However, the decoder itself also has potentiometers, so I don't think it's a delta decoder. I am still using blue transformers (6667) so I'm not sure if I would want to stay with a digital kit with the risk of frying it.

12081512_1807179506175796_114266274_n.jpg
12081373_1807179512842462_1719107797_n.jpg

Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
Hi, Anatole!
Originally Posted by: Answ Go to Quoted Post
At full power from my transformer, (track voltage was 15 V) the engine could not pull a 9 passenger car train around a curve.
Did the loco wheels slip or did they stop turning?
If wheels stopped turning then there is a problem with motor torque or a mechanical problem with something locking.
If wheels slipped, then make sure traction tyres are not lubricated.

If wheels slipped then another motor will not do any good.
If wheels didn't slip, try changing the potentiometers on the decoder. One is for maximum speed and could also affect the tractive effort if speed was reduced.



Tom,

The engine does not slip at all. The traction tires look like they are in pretty good condition. I did fiddle around with the potentiometers to change the maximum speed. (In the picture, the left one is for maximum speed, correct? Am I adjusting these incorrectly? I wasn't sure which side was maximum.

Thanks for the replies,

Anatole
- Anatole
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Offline Answ  
#5 Posted : 10 October 2015 21:48:19(UTC)
Answ


Joined: 16/06/2010(UTC)
Posts: 215
Location: WI, US
On a side note, the engine operates faster in reverse than forwards. Is that because of incorrect wiring, by any chance?
- Anatole
Offline H0  
#6 Posted : 10 October 2015 22:13:45(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
The 6090 set came with rotors with green edges, so you cannot tell right or wrong from the colour.

Turn the potentiometers clockwise to get the maximum values. One is for speed (should be maximum), one is for acceleration delay (set according to your taste - I'm not sure if it makes a difference with the 6090 decoder, but with a 6090x decoder it will make a difference).

Did you check the collector? Make sure the gaps between the collector plates are clean. If they are filled with carbon dust, the loco will run slow and this could even kill the decoder.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
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Offline Answ  
#7 Posted : 10 October 2015 23:05:51(UTC)
Answ


Joined: 16/06/2010(UTC)
Posts: 215
Location: WI, US
Tom,

I pulled the motor apart and did a little cleaning, which has helped. Thanks for the advice.
There seemed to be very little dust present, but it's running faster and stronger than before (9 cars was no problem).
I am still worried about using the blue transformers with the decoder, however. After reading a few other posts, most do not recommend using these for digital in analog mode. So far, I've had no problems, but is that going to make any difference?

Thanks,
Anatole
- Anatole
Offline H0  
#8 Posted : 10 October 2015 23:16:28(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Anatole,
In my experience these older decoders are more robust with respect to reversing voltages.

And not all blue transformers are alike. Some have a reversing voltage of about 26 Veff, some have a reversing voltage of 31 Veff. Do you have a voltmeter? You can measure your transformers to see if they are on the low or high side.


Consider replacing the brushes if the torque problem returns in short time. There should be no oil at the brushes, the brush holder, or the collector. Do not push fresh brushes into oily brush holders.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
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Offline Answ  
#9 Posted : 10 October 2015 23:30:39(UTC)
Answ


Joined: 16/06/2010(UTC)
Posts: 215
Location: WI, US
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
Anatole,
In my experience these older decoders are more robust with respect to reversing voltages.

And not all blue transformers are alike. Some have a reversing voltage of about 26 Veff, some have a reversing voltage of 31 Veff. Do you have a voltmeter? You can measure your transformers to see if they are on the low or high side.


Consider replacing the brushes if the torque problem returns in short time. There should be no oil at the brushes, the brush holder, or the collector. Do not push fresh brushes into oily brush holders.


I tested my three transformers earlier, all three are measuring between 28 and 29 V at the socket. The track voltage is a little lower.

Thanks again. The BR 44 is now able to pull 27 freight cars at 1/3 speed. Cool

Anatole
- Anatole
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Offline Mark_1602  
#10 Posted : 11 October 2015 14:58:04(UTC)
Mark_1602

Luxembourg   
Joined: 24/09/2014(UTC)
Posts: 704
Location: Luxembourg
Hi Anatole,

I collect vintage Märklin loocmotives, so I'd strongly recommend opening every locomotive you buy. Usually old locomotives are not as good as the sellers say, or they've been tampered with. If that's the case, you may open an Ebay case as long as you have used Paypal and get your money back.

Even if there's no issue with the item, there's usually some dirt on the wheels, the gearbox, as well as inside the motor. Unscrewing the motor shield carefully and disassembling the motor is usually advisable. I use cotton earbuds to get rid of the black grime, then every cogwheel gets one drop of Trix grease (onto one of the teeth), and every bearing gets a small drop of Faller oil. Obviously, oil and grease should be used sparingly, but you can't do without them. I usually replace the coals, except if they still look new.

Every vintage locomotive I've ever serviced like that ran better afterwards. This procedure also helps if the gearbox is blocked because disassembling the motor allows you to clean and move the cogwheels, especially the ones inside the motor.

Best regards,

Mark
Best regards, Mark

I like Märklin items produced in the 1960s or early '70s, but also digital locos & current rolling stock.
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