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Offline baggio  
#1 Posted : 08 October 2015 02:30:48(UTC)
baggio

Canada   
Joined: 21/09/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,729
Location: Toronto
Hello, Everyone:

I am hoping to make my trains (or one of them) move up to a second level, then run for a bit and finally descend without falling out.

I was thinking of maybe using a helix from Noch because it looks really nice and some of you helped me with that choice.

Then I saw on the Noch website some green foam that would do the same thing, maybe, without a helix. The cost of the foam is really high, close to that of a helix in some cases.

Also, the foam comes with or without a slope. However the pictures seem to be identical.

What is the difference between "with a slope" and "without a slope"?

Is the foam the way to go for raising the train up one level?

Would I be better off with a combination, helix AND foam?

These are two pictures from the Noch website on point:
Without a slope - green foam.jpg

With a slope - green foam.jpg

Thank you.

BigGrin

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Offline jcrtrains  
#2 Posted : 08 October 2015 02:54:52(UTC)
jcrtrains

Canada   
Joined: 31/10/2009(UTC)
Posts: 597
Location: Toronto, Ontario
Baggio;

Woodland Scenics also makes these in a variety of styles and available perhaps a bit more economically in Toronto.

Woodland Scenics Risers
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Offline baggio  
#3 Posted : 08 October 2015 04:36:28(UTC)
baggio

Canada   
Joined: 21/09/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,729
Location: Toronto
Thanks to JCR's suggsted link, I found this video from Woodland Scenics that seems very helpful for building modular layouts for our club BigGrin :

http://woodlandscenics.woodland....com/show/video/ModURail

However, at this stage I am still trying to learn how to move a train up a slope without having the train fall off or making the slope too steep. Sad
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Offline PJMärklin  
#4 Posted : 08 October 2015 09:46:05(UTC)
PJMärklin

Australia   
Joined: 04/12/2013(UTC)
Posts: 2,204
Location: Hobart, Australia
Originally Posted by: baggio Go to Quoted Post
Hello, Everyone:


Then I saw on the Noch website some green foam that would do the same thing, maybe, without a helix. The cost of the foam is really high, close to that of a helix in some cases.


Is the foam the way to go for raising the train up one level?


Thank you.

BigGrin





Hello Silvano,


The green foam does deteriorate over time and crumbles.
Rather awkward if it is not in an accessible spot.

Regards,

PJ
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Offline Alsterstreek  
#5 Posted : 08 October 2015 11:59:38(UTC)
Alsterstreek

Germany   
Joined: 16/11/2011(UTC)
Posts: 5,664
Location: Hybrid Home
Originally Posted by: baggio Go to Quoted Post


However, at this stage I am still trying to learn how to move a train up a slope without having the train fall off or making the slope too steep. Sad

Depends:
What kind of equipment?
Train length?
Height to be "bridged"?
Which curve radius?
Available space?
Offline JohnMishler  
#6 Posted : 08 October 2015 15:13:22(UTC)
JohnMishler

United States   
Joined: 06/02/2014(UTC)
Posts: 53
Location: Sabetha KS and Mount Airy NC
I used the Woodland Scenics incline and risers for my layout and found it to be very nice to work with. Easy to install: 1) assembly track and trace the layout onto the base material, remove the track an place the risers and inclines temporarily with foam pins, reassemble the track on top of the risers and adjust positioning of inclines and risers accordingly, remove the track, and affix the risers with hot glue. When I did my first installation, I neglected the middle reassembly and adjust positioning step - not included in Wooddland's instructions but should be. I re-learned something I knew but overlooked - as altitude rises positions move since track is a fixed length.
John
Check out progress on my layout here.
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Offline 5HorizonsRR  
#7 Posted : 08 October 2015 18:34:53(UTC)
5HorizonsRR

United States   
Joined: 05/12/2004(UTC)
Posts: 2,861
Location: CA, USA
That noch ramp is REALLY steep. I'd only use with short trains..
SBB Era 2-5
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Offline baggio  
#8 Posted : 11 October 2015 00:07:02(UTC)
baggio

Canada   
Joined: 21/09/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,729
Location: Toronto
Originally Posted by: JohnMishler Go to Quoted Post
as altitude rises positions move since track is a fixed length.


Sorry, but what does this mean?Confused

I put in an order for a Noch basic ramp. We shall see what happens. BigGrin
Offline fkowal  
#9 Posted : 11 October 2015 03:35:35(UTC)
fkowal

Canada   
Joined: 01/02/2012(UTC)
Posts: 69
Location: Toronto
Baggio, George's Trains is a Woodlands Scenic supplier.
Offline fkowal  
#10 Posted : 11 October 2015 03:38:59(UTC)
fkowal

Canada   
Joined: 01/02/2012(UTC)
Posts: 69
Location: Toronto
Baggio, George's Trains is a Woodlands Scenic supplier. Johnmischler is referring to Pythagoras' Theorem
Offline baggio  
#11 Posted : 11 October 2015 03:59:53(UTC)
baggio

Canada   
Joined: 21/09/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,729
Location: Toronto
Originally Posted by: fkowal Go to Quoted Post
Johnmischler is referring to Pythagoras' Theorem


Confused Confused Confused Cursing Confused Confused

Offline Alsterstreek  
#12 Posted : 11 October 2015 17:12:53(UTC)
Alsterstreek

Germany   
Joined: 16/11/2011(UTC)
Posts: 5,664
Location: Hybrid Home
The theorem - attributed to the Greek mathematician Pythagoras who died in Southern Italy in the 6th century B.C. - describes the relationship between the three sides of a right triangle. Translated into MRR terms, it means that the inclined stretch of a ramp is longer than its base. E.g., for a 100 cm long ramp with a 5 cm height the inclined track is ca. 1.25 mm longer than the base. This effect needs to be considered for track planning of multi-level layouts.

Edited by user 27 October 2015 17:17:51(UTC)  | Reason: calculus

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Offline baggio  
#13 Posted : 11 October 2015 18:13:42(UTC)
baggio

Canada   
Joined: 21/09/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,729
Location: Toronto
Thank you, Al, for explaining it to me. I was familiar with Mr. P., but I am still asking myself what this has to do with MMR.
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Offline Hoffmann  
#14 Posted : 11 October 2015 22:35:17(UTC)
Hoffmann

Canada   
Joined: 25/11/2004(UTC)
Posts: 1,106
Location: Guelph, Ontario


Hi,

In the Marklin Trackplan Book it is listed that for a rise of 3.5% you need to go up 6mm for every 180mm of Track length and the first 2 pieces of track rise from 0mm to 2.5mm and then 5.5mm and then every track piece another 6mm until you get to 74.5mmm for Diesel or Steam locomotives to pass under your raised track. Forr Electrics you need either 80.5mm (lower Panto) or 104.5 with running Catenary.



Martin
marklin-eh
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Offline Mark5  
#15 Posted : 12 October 2015 04:59:25(UTC)
Mark5

Canada   
Joined: 29/01/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,420
Location: Montreal, Canada
Any time you can give a bit more room for the elevation to rise more slower, you will have better success in pulling longer trains up inclines without slippage. So its a good general rule not to squeeze in the minimum. A bit of experience with permanent construction when skimping on space, and making appropriate alterations can overcome a good deal of frustration. Run the trains a bit in your final configuration with loads and cars, and see what they can do easily. Have you tried that?
- Mark

btw @fkowal I still have old blue Marklin boxes with George's Trains price tags on them when they still carried it in the 70s.
I've never been there though. My Dad would buy it in town after work. We lived in the burbs a few stops on the Go Train down the line.

DB DR FS NS SNCF c. 1950-65, fan of station architecture esp. from 1920-70.
In single point perspective, where do track lines meet?
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Offline RayF  
#16 Posted : 12 October 2015 13:34:16(UTC)
RayF

Gibraltar   
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 15,837
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
A couple of years ago I constructed an "up and over" ramp similar to the Noch ramp in the first photo in order to test the climbing abilities of my locos. I built it on my living room floor using Lego bricks as supports, and made the ramp so that over 270 degrees the rise was about 10cm, using R1. The intention was to see if it was possible to construct a bridge over the line with just a simple loop forming the access ramp. I had in mind a possible "figure of eight" plan.

I found that all of my locos could climb my test ramp easily on their own, and also with short trains. I didn't have the space to perform the test with long trains, but as I can't run long trains anyway in the space I have available I didn't see the need.

I never continued with this plan as even with the tight clearances I was testing it still took up too much space in the area I have available. Maybe in the future if I have a bit more area available I can return to this concept.

I found it useful to carry out this test, as it was easy to vary the slope by moving my Lego pillars around, and it gave me a better feel for the climbing abilities of the locos. I find it confusing when I hear 2%, 5% 10% etc. It seems to me that different people define the slope differently. Performing a practical test is better than reading about other people's tests!
Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
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Offline baggio  
#17 Posted : 12 October 2015 15:32:54(UTC)
baggio

Canada   
Joined: 21/09/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,729
Location: Toronto
Hi, Ray:

Thank you for sharing your experience with the helix with us.

I decided to buy a very simple R1 helix and do what, I think, you were planning on doing: making the train go up to a second level, then give it a bit of a run using a bridge and then have the train go down in a nice and fast descent.

I did something like this with my American set in the past and coming down was very nice, but going up, using the standard graduated pillars was a problem for most locos. I am hoping the helix will resolve the going up problem.

Like you, space is at a premium at my place, for this reason I opted for a smaller helix.

Of course, I will let you guys know what the outcome is.

Happy Thanksgiving Day to all.

BigGrin

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Offline JohnMishler  
#18 Posted : 12 October 2015 16:59:04(UTC)
JohnMishler

United States   
Joined: 06/02/2014(UTC)
Posts: 53
Location: Sabetha KS and Mount Airy NC
Originally Posted by: baggio Go to Quoted Post
Thank you, Al, for explaining it to me. I was familiar with Mr. P., but I am still asking myself what this has to do with MMR.


More simply said - do affix anything permanently until you've tested it with your trains! Cool Cool

- John
John
Check out progress on my layout here.
Offline baggio  
#19 Posted : 12 October 2015 17:50:48(UTC)
baggio

Canada   
Joined: 21/09/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,729
Location: Toronto
Originally Posted by: JohnMishler Go to Quoted Post
More simply said - do affix anything permanently until you've tested it with your trains!


Sorry, John, did you mean "do NOT affix.."? BigGrin

That is what I was planning on doing, but thanks for the reminder. ThumpUp
Offline Alsterstreek  
#20 Posted : 12 October 2015 18:14:32(UTC)
Alsterstreek

Germany   
Joined: 16/11/2011(UTC)
Posts: 5,664
Location: Hybrid Home
Originally Posted by: RayF Go to Quoted Post
I find it confusing when I hear 2%, 5% 10% etc. It seems to me that different people define the slope differently.


What would Mr. P. have said to this?
;o)
Offline Mark5  
#21 Posted : 13 October 2015 23:51:34(UTC)
Mark5

Canada   
Joined: 29/01/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,420
Location: Montreal, Canada
A few crazy MMR helixes and spirals to inspire.
Enjoy!



DB DR FS NS SNCF c. 1950-65, fan of station architecture esp. from 1920-70.
In single point perspective, where do track lines meet?
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