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Offline clapcott  
#101 Posted : 11 October 2014 05:57:45(UTC)
clapcott

New Zealand   
Joined: 12/12/2005(UTC)
Posts: 2,433
Location: Wellington, New_Zealand
A bit of field observation for the 60821.

- Electrical specifications as seen
- Operational considerations
- Tolerance

Electrical specifications as observed
The following are some oscilloscope images of the PWM when activated for Red and Green.
- Port PWM defined as 50%
- - Use ports 1G and 1R so CV's..
- - - 112,115 = (mode) =17
- - - 113,116 = (PWM ) =128
- - - 114,117 = (duration) = 250 <- ( x 0.05 = 12.5 seconds )
- 5v per division, 2ms per devision
- - ~16V DC, ~12.5ms (this is one period and converts to 80Hz)
- Images are relative to the centre line of the scope (left feed to 60821 module) with the power going to the right feed to the module shown as positive (first image) and negative (second image) relatively.

UserPostedImageUserPostedImage


Operational Consideration.
It was found that with the 60831(m83) port mode set to 17 (= "Min. switching - “Period“ indicates the min. switching time" as per 60821 documented requirement ) , that it was not possible to stop (interrupt) the power/motor (e.g. if you pushed the button by mistake). in this case you would have to wait for the port to timeout and then press the alternate button to return it to the original state).

If you did press the alternate button it would cause the BOTH ports of the 60831 to drive for the overlapping duration i.e. they were driving against themselves. The output to the module would in effect be a net zero so the motor would stop. But you still have to wait for the first buttons timeout before the motor would drive back as commanded by the second button


Tolerance
Shorting (by accident) the outputs, of a 60821 unit, together when it was driving would destroy the unit.
i.e. very little/no protection from the hobbyist.

Edited by user 29 May 2017 07:48:03(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Peter
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Offline clapcott  
#102 Posted : 12 October 2014 00:22:00(UTC)
clapcott

New Zealand   
Joined: 12/12/2005(UTC)
Posts: 2,433
Location: Wellington, New_Zealand
The closest product I am aware of that Marklin offers as a match for the 60821 (i.e. a DC turnout motor mechanism with end stops) is item 59079. This is, itself, from the Hubner stable - there item H1019 and is for 1-Gauge.

Indeed, the H1019 is rated for 16V so appears a good match compared to the other options around which appear to be 12V devices.
But , that said, while the motor is DC the package is designed for both AC and DC operation with internal diodes and various wiring options.

I managed to get hold of a unit for a quick play and found it functional with a degree of speed variation down to about the 50% setting. This itself was influenced by the load on the device - if not physically connected to a turnout the unit would stall when activating the feedback switches at around the 25% setting mark. Noting, of course, that the motor is pretty slow anyway so even halving its speed is "way over the top"

In summary the use of the 60821 only stands up in comparison with the Matching Hubner plugin decoder at the price level- in this case the per port price of a 60831/60821 combination is about 50% of the 59080. However if you were looking for an alternate option to the 59080 decoder (and because the 59079 is designed for AC operation) you might just as well look at a straight 60841, or 60831 with external relay which are cheaper still. Using the red of an old Marklin Transformer instead of the yellow would provide adjustment if you really wanted it.

So... I am still on the lookout for a useful/practical purpose for the 60821.

Peter
Offline nicrolfi  
#103 Posted : 30 November 2014 11:38:34(UTC)
nicrolfi

Belgium   
Joined: 30/11/2014(UTC)
Posts: 11
Location: Hainaut
Hello All ,

My name is Roland, I am new on this forum and I write from Belgium.

I read those topics but it not quiet clear for me.

I am also a beginner with digital.

Please help me by describing step by step how il is possible to programm the m83 to make a bliking light for exemple.

Marklin's french documentation is very poor!

I see the video given here above on youtube. How is it to obtain this result? That seems so easy for you!

Sorry for the language mistakes but normally I speek french!

Thank you very much for the answers.

Best regards

Roland
Offline Renato  
#104 Posted : 30 November 2014 19:23:45(UTC)
Renato

Italy   
Joined: 19/03/2004(UTC)
Posts: 976
Location: Gorizia, Italy
Hi Roland,

Welcome to the forum.

I am confident other members having these decoders will be able to help you.

Cheers

Renato
Offline clapcott  
#105 Posted : 30 November 2014 21:59:58(UTC)
clapcott

New Zealand   
Joined: 12/12/2005(UTC)
Posts: 2,433
Location: Wellington, New_Zealand
Originally Posted by: nicrolfi Go to Quoted Post
Hello All ,
...
Please help me by describing step by step how il is possible to program the m83 to make a bliking light for exemple.
...
Roland


Hello Roland,

Can you please indicate the controller you are using - this will allow for a more focused reply.


Peter
Offline nicrolfi  
#106 Posted : 01 December 2014 14:45:24(UTC)
nicrolfi

Belgium   
Joined: 30/11/2014(UTC)
Posts: 11
Location: Hainaut
Hello Peter,

I have a CS2.

I am progressing but surely your help will be a big step for me.

Thank you for the time you will spend for me

Have a good day

Roland
Offline clapcott  
#107 Posted : 02 December 2014 11:07:05(UTC)
clapcott

New Zealand   
Joined: 12/12/2005(UTC)
Posts: 2,433
Location: Wellington, New_Zealand
Originally Posted by: nicrolfi Go to Quoted Post
I have a CS2.

Roland,

With a CS2 you may use either
- Programing Track (Read and Write)
- POM (Write Only)

The Program Track (PRG) may be used with either a dummy DCC loco , or (post v3.6) the Keyboard edit function.

See if the following helps join the dots - it is for POM, but you will see where that is selected and you can use PRG instead if desired.
Peter
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Offline Martin T  
#108 Posted : 15 December 2014 20:01:57(UTC)
Martin T

Sweden   
Joined: 02/01/2006(UTC)
Posts: 872
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
Originally Posted by: clapcott Go to Quoted Post
FYI

Power:
- Voltage specification on base of unit (not in manual) = 19V DC
- Connector is a 2.5mm centre pin


Hi Peter,

I wonder how much further one can push the voltage up without damaging the Components?
Normally FETs are rated up to 24, or even 36VDC.. Have you looked inside the decoder?
I have a 21VDC line which I would like to use... Wink
Regards / Martin T
Click your way over to me in Marbrodal in Sweden: http://www.xn--mrklintg-0zaq.se/index_e.html
Offline clapcott  
#109 Posted : 17 December 2014 20:32:10(UTC)
clapcott

New Zealand   
Joined: 12/12/2005(UTC)
Posts: 2,433
Location: Wellington, New_Zealand
Originally Posted by: Martin T Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: clapcott Go to Quoted Post
FYI

Power:
- Voltage specification on base of unit (not in manual) = 19V DC
- Connector is a 2.5mm centre pin


Hi Peter,

I wonder how much further one can push the voltage up without damaging the Components?
Normally FETs are rated up to 24, or even 36VDC.. Have you looked inside the decoder?
I have a 21VDC line which I would like to use... Wink


Martin,

I have not explored (stress) testing this aspect.
You do not state the power available from your 21VDC line.

As originally identified, the external power could be provided via Marklins 66361/5 only - this is an 18V power supply
At announce it has been stated that the power supply cannot be used without an intermediate 60822.
The reasons for this remain unclear

We also know that the track voltage is 22V peak (square wave AC)
Thus , a tolerance to your 21V option might well be expected
I will comment that the 60831 does appear to be "short of power during programming" when being connected to MS2 track power only

Of concern would be "where is the fuse". Is there fusing within the 60831 or is this why the 60822 is needed.
If the fusing relies on UV monitoring under load, then detection may be suspect with a higher (than spec'd ) input.
The 3A notation in one database is unqualified - and certainly not achievable currently as the 66361/5 is 18V/36VA = 2A (max)

I welcome your testing results, however am inclined to await the delivery of the 60822, with a view to understanding what purpose it plays in power delivery/protection.

Peter
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Offline clapcott  
#110 Posted : 06 August 2015 09:34:10(UTC)
clapcott

New Zealand   
Joined: 12/12/2005(UTC)
Posts: 2,433
Location: Wellington, New_Zealand
Time to dust off this thread as the 60822 has been shipping for a week now.

However...
No documentation on Marklin site
No ebay references (pictures)
No Stummi reference.
...

maybe just another fizzer like the 60821
Peter
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Offline steventrain  
#111 Posted : 10 August 2015 22:54:16(UTC)
steventrain

United Kingdom   
Joined: 21/10/2004(UTC)
Posts: 31,594
Location: United Kingdom
Originally Posted by: clapcott Go to Quoted Post
Time to dust off this thread as the 60822 has been shipping for a week now.

However...
No documentation on Marklin site
No ebay references (pictures)
No Stummi reference.
...

maybe just another fizzer like the 60821


Real 60822 came up on ebay.

http://www.ebay.de/itm/M...6787?hash=item43e0d29863

Scroll down for more pictures.
Large Marklinist 3- Rails Layout with CS2/MS2/Boosters/C-track/favorites Electric class E03/BR103, E18/E118, E94, Crocodiles/Steam BR01, BR03, BR05, BR23, BR44, BR50, Big Boy.
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Offline clapcott  
#112 Posted : 11 August 2015 05:58:52(UTC)
clapcott

New Zealand   
Joined: 12/12/2005(UTC)
Posts: 2,433
Location: Wellington, New_Zealand
Originally Posted by: steventrain Go to Quoted Post

Real 60822 came up on ebay.


Scary RollEyes

Peter
Offline clapcott  
#113 Posted : 17 August 2015 02:04:44(UTC)
clapcott

New Zealand   
Joined: 12/12/2005(UTC)
Posts: 2,433
Location: Wellington, New_Zealand
From information to hand about the 60822 (Marklin have still not published a manual on their website)

From what I can gather there is still nothing to actually specific to indicate what it does. i.e. Why call it a power supply when you need a power supply to make it work. The reference to an Overload LED is the only hint I can see.

Refering to the photo in the ebay link provided above.
2)
2b) the right hand "D9" connector , metal edge just seen = "no function"
2a) the left hand "D9", not visable" = .. is intended for direct connection for a m83/m84 decoder.

1) The right hand end "DC barrel connector" (next to the D9 connector)is the "Connection socket for the 66361, voltage supply"
- Safety Notes "The voltage Supply for the Power Supply Unit comes exclusively by means of the 66361 switched mode power pack"
CONFLICTING but expected
- Electrical connection: The 60822 ... from 60361/60365 ..."

3) the green (2 position) terminal block at front right = "for connection to the track layout" ?? TRACK ? presumably the input Red/Brown from track OR controller/booster
6) the red LED next to the terminal block - overload indication . Now we get a hint of the real purpose !!!! But No actual specification for what value this overload value is. The 2014/5 Catalogue alos makes a note to "... note the maximum power limit" also, without stating what its value is

4) the green (3 position) terminal block at front left = " for k83 decoder"
5) the green LED next to the terminal block - "status indicator" - shows when the device is supplied with voltage.


k83
Older k83 decoders can also be supplied with power with the 60822 Power Supply Unit
These are connected to it according to the graphic........

Along with the "0" and "B" going to the k83s Brown and Red ...
??? The Graphic shows the "L" plugging into a Yellow of one of the k83 outputs. "" ???
PLUS a graphic that stresses do not use (with the k83) concurrently with a ("b" or "0") connection to the track.

Comment/Supposition/Guess ,...
That the "B"/Red is only the + (positive side) of the digital square wave. and the "L" is rectified - (minus) 22V
Thus preventing the k83 from producing its own -22V


Closing thought:
- The reference in the 60883/L88 to ... Current supply 66361+ 60822 would appear to be a typo as there is no "D9" connector for it to get its power from.

- There is apparently no active components in the unit with just Capacitors,Resistors and Diodes(LEDs) along with one Inductor (Power Choke) and a V1 (possibly varistor)
Therefore The overload is just an indicator - no actual cutout.

- One past reference did allude to the power input possibly being able to be supplied from a normal (Marklin) AC transformer, and the unpopulated "K2" designation (seen in the image) does have land-patterns/tracks to a missing BR1 (which can be logically assumed to be a Bridge rectifier) because its output goes straight to the DC connector and has a big Capacitor across it. Thus, with these components missing, this promise for ROI of old blue transformers is unfulfilled.
Peter
Offline steventrain  
#114 Posted : 19 August 2015 20:44:36(UTC)
steventrain

United Kingdom   
Joined: 21/10/2004(UTC)
Posts: 31,594
Location: United Kingdom
Originally Posted by: clapcott Go to Quoted Post
From information to hand about the 60822 (Marklin have still not published a manual on their website)

.



60822 PDF Manual available from here.


Large Marklinist 3- Rails Layout with CS2/MS2/Boosters/C-track/favorites Electric class E03/BR103, E18/E118, E94, Crocodiles/Steam BR01, BR03, BR05, BR23, BR44, BR50, Big Boy.
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Offline clapcott  
#115 Posted : 03 October 2015 22:15:37(UTC)
clapcott

New Zealand   
Joined: 12/12/2005(UTC)
Posts: 2,433
Location: Wellington, New_Zealand
A note to record what has come to light with recent versions of the M84 and the 1114 (Nov2014) version of the manual.

Newer M84s have a SW8 (Switch 8) configuration switch and this is referenced in a new (additional) page in the manual that talks about the M84 useage with Hobby Signals.
UserPostedImage

The information about Sw8 reports ...
"8 Switches for the lighting on Hobby signals, delivered from the factory on."

This would appear to address the situation where the lights are otherwise dimmable (CV:38), but were set , from the factory, with a value of "0" (i.e. a Hobby signal railroader could not use the box without getting a digital controller that could alter the CV and turn the brightness up.)

An additional note states ...
"If no Hobby signals are connected, we recommend turning the switch off (8) to reduce the current consumption"

This I take as a bit of marketing "spin". The switch certainly addresses the above issue, however if there are no signals connected then there is no (additional) power draw.

The new manual does now make reference to CV:38 in the CV table. However, there is no comment about the fact that SW8 would appear to override this value.
More observation needed - should anyone have one of these newer units, please test if this hypothesis is valid.



It also raises a , totally unrelated, question in my mind - The M83/M84 were originally marketed as being software upgrade-able.
One wonders what was easier , a software update to change the default value of CV38 or the redesign of the the M84 circuit board and the addition of a switch? Add to this, the need for a basic assembly process to install the switch and set it two the "On" position.

Edited by user 04 October 2015 07:40:57(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Peter
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Offline sjlauritsen  
#116 Posted : 03 October 2015 23:00:06(UTC)
sjlauritsen

Denmark   
Joined: 18/08/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,081
Location: Denmark
I am curious about the 60822. I've have heard a few complaints that the module simply does not work when you attach more than one decoder to it. The digital signal does not seem to get through. Has anybody had this problem? I've checked with my own and it is the same thing. It simply does not work when more than one decoder is connected. I've written to Märklin Service about the problem this week. I am curious on what they have to say.
Søren from Denmark
Blog: https://railway.zone/ | Danish Model Railway Forum: https://baneforum.dk/
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Offline clapcott  
#117 Posted : 04 October 2015 22:46:52(UTC)
clapcott

New Zealand   
Joined: 12/12/2005(UTC)
Posts: 2,433
Location: Wellington, New_Zealand
Originally Posted by: sjlauritsen Go to Quoted Post
I am curious about the 60822. ... The digital signal does not seem to get through.


Søren,

I am unclear on what you mean by "get through". The 60822 is a power supply/power filter for the M8x

It does have a separate track input (B&0) for use with (.. pass through to..) the K83 , (i.e. if you do not have a any M8x ). However, as per the 60831/41 manuals, you do not use this 60822 B&0 connector for the input for the M8x devices.
Peter
Offline NZMarklinist  
#118 Posted : 05 October 2015 02:17:40(UTC)
NZMarklinist

New Zealand   
Joined: 15/03/2011(UTC)
Posts: 1,757
Location: Auckland NZ
Peter, all,

Have you guys seen the latest copy of "Marklin Digital New" out of the US ? Vol 27-No 2

Good in depth articles about all, and using them with CS2, by the new Marklin Digital Guys
Glen
Auckland NZ

" Every Marklin layout needs a V200, a Railbus and a Banana car", not to mention a few Black and red Steamers, oh and the odd Elok !

CS1 Reloaded, Touch Cab, C Track Modules, K track layout all under construction. Currently Insider
Offline sjlauritsen  
#119 Posted : 05 October 2015 06:37:11(UTC)
sjlauritsen

Denmark   
Joined: 18/08/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,081
Location: Denmark
Originally Posted by: clapcott Go to Quoted Post
I am unclear on what you mean by "get through". The 60822 is a power supply/power filter for the M8x

Yes, I know. With regards to the digital connection, the 60822 manual states, at least my manual does, and shows with a drawing: "The digital signal can be connected from the track to the 60822 Power Supply Unit. Additional power feed to the m83 / m84 decoders connected to the Power Supply Unit are not necessary.".

The drawing in the manual shows the digital signal connected to the 0,B port on the 60822 and m83 / m84 decoder connected to the side with no connections to it. If you do that with more than one m83 / m84, all the decoders in the row stops working. By "getting through" I meant that it seems like the digital signal does not get through to the decoder, since the decoder stops reacting, the power does get through though. First I thought it was the overload protection in the 60822 that was somehow failing, but everything is powered and the overload lamp is not on.

To sum up: If I connect power to the 60822, and connect the digitial signal to the 60822 and then connect one, and only one, decoder m83 / m84 to it, it works just as expected. If I connect an additional m83 / m84 or more, it stops working. I have heard a few people, and one dealer, complaining about this, so I wondered if this happens to everyone.

If I drop the 60822 and the power source completely and feed the same decoders directly using just the digital signal connected straight to the first m83 / m84 in the row, the things work just as expected and everything is good.

Something happens in the 60822 that can cause this behaviour, and I really cannot see what that should be.
Søren from Denmark
Blog: https://railway.zone/ | Danish Model Railway Forum: https://baneforum.dk/
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Offline sjlauritsen  
#120 Posted : 05 October 2015 06:47:57(UTC)
sjlauritsen

Denmark   
Joined: 18/08/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,081
Location: Denmark
Originally Posted by: clapcott Go to Quoted Post
It does have a separate track input (B&0) for use with (.. pass through to..) the K83 , (i.e. if you do not have a any M8x ). However, as per the 60831/41 manuals, you do not use this 60822 B&0 connector for the input for the M8x devices.

Never the less, if I ignore the information in the 60822 manual and do as the m83 / m84 manual states, then everything works. Oh my, this is a bit annoying and confusing to the customer. Especially since it actually does work with one decoder on the 60822, but not more, it gives you the impression that the information in the 60822 manual is correct.

I am curious on what Märklin Service will answer. :-)



Søren from Denmark
Blog: https://railway.zone/ | Danish Model Railway Forum: https://baneforum.dk/
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Offline Werner Brinkmann  
#121 Posted : 21 June 2016 17:10:41(UTC)
Werner Brinkmann

Germany   
Joined: 15/05/2015(UTC)
Posts: 2
Location: Hessen, Frankfurt am Main
Originally Posted by: clapcott Go to Quoted Post
60821 now shipping

Name of product = Motor Control

Comments:
Purpose? When compared to a k84/m84 = unclear

The default port mode for a m83 is 18 , which results in a pulse to the solinoid (signal/turnout)
m83 port mode set to 17 is for "Minimum Switch Time" - allowing for running for a "longer" time but not continuous
Question: is mode=129 (continuous on) supported ??

There is no "max current per m83" specification available. This (500mA per portpair) implies a capacity of 2 Amps
But this ties in with a 66361/5 36VA (=2 Amps) so only one m83/m84 can be used in a chain.

No specification (other than Max=500mA) is given for the motor to be used. As Marklin do not have a motor to compare with some measurements are needed.

==========================================================================
ref
http://medienpdb.maerkli.../1/pdf/60821_betrieb.pdf

Connections for Motor Control and Required Settings
The motor control is connected to the terminal clips for turnouts on the m83 decoder. Maximum load for motor control is 500 milliamps.
The required CV settings for operation can only be adjusted in the DCC mode. When doing this bear in mind the operating instructions for the m83 decoder (Pages 20-21). The settings remain preserved and in effect in MM/fx.

UserPostedImage

CV-Settings: min - max
Switching Function Turnout, red = Value 17
Pulse Width (Regulating speed) = Value 1 -255
Period (Regulating time) = Value 50 - 200
Switching Function Turnout, green = Value 17
Pulse Width (Regulating speed) = Value 1 -255
Period (Regulating time) = Value 50 - 200
The CVs arrange themselves according to the turnout connections to which the motor control is connected. The rotational direction of the motor can be adapted by swapping the wires at the terminal clips for the motor control


Offline Werner Brinkmann  
#122 Posted : 21 June 2016 17:35:24(UTC)
Werner Brinkmann

Germany   
Joined: 15/05/2015(UTC)
Posts: 2
Location: Hessen, Frankfurt am Main
Subject: connections for motor controll and required settings
picture given and
CV settings min max
witching Function Turnout, red = Value 17
Pulse Width (Regulating speed) = Value 1 -255
Period (Regulating time) = Value 50 - 200
Switching Function Turnout, green = Value 17
Pulse Width (Regulating speed) = Value 1 -255
Period (Regulating time) = Value 50 - 200
The CVs arrange themselves according to the turnout connections to which the motor control is connected. The rotational direction of the motor can be adapted by swapping the wires at the terminal clips for the motor control

so far understood.

Configuring Output ports with CS2, DCC mode, POM

However, each m83 decoder has 4 output ports
each output port has its own CV setting table
from CV 112 up to CV 135
CV 112 - CV 117
CV 118 - CV 123
CV 124 - CV 129
CV 130 - CV 135

In your example the motor is connected to output port 4 (adresse 4)
Where do I have to enter the settings?
adresse 4, CV setting table 4, CV 130-CV 135 ?
What happens to Adress 1 - 3, CV setting tables 1-3, CV 130-CV 135 ?
This question may sound stupid and reveals my misunderstanding.
Please clarify, what do I understand wrong?
Many thanks
Werner
Offline clapcott  
#123 Posted : 22 June 2016 01:14:08(UTC)
clapcott

New Zealand   
Joined: 12/12/2005(UTC)
Posts: 2,433
Location: Wellington, New_Zealand
Originally Posted by: Werner Brinkmann Go to Quoted Post

However, each m83 decoder has 4 output ports
each output port has its own CV setting table
from CV 112 up to CV 135
CV 112 - CV 117
CV 118 - CV 123
CV 124 - CV 129
CV 130 - CV 135


To be pedantic, the m83 has 8 ports - these are usually utilised as 4 "pairs"

Quote:

In your example the motor is connected to output port 4 (address 4)
Where do I have to enter the settings?
address 4, CV setting table 4, CV 130-CV 135 ?


- Use ports 4G and 4R so CV's..
- - 130,133 = (mode) .........= 17
- - 131,134 = (PWM ) .........= 255 <- ( may be tweaked down to about 128 for speed control - depends on motor )
- - 132,135 = (duration) .....= 250 <- ( x 0.05 = 12.5 seconds )


Quote:

What happens to Address 1 - 3, CV setting tables 1-3, CV 130-CV 135 ?

Port pairs 1 to 3 (CV 112-129) may be used for whatever else you have - solinoid turnouts/signals .....
As individual ports you may use them for uncouplers or just LEDs (with features like flashing)






My question to you ....

What are you actually using the 60821 for ????
Or more specifically which motor are you using ?
Peter
Offline efel  
#124 Posted : 03 July 2016 16:21:34(UTC)
efel

France   
Joined: 23/02/2005(UTC)
Posts: 800
Hi,

I have read this topic, but "period" and "pulse width" are not still clear to me.
Assuming I want to drive a 74490 point motor, using:

switching function :17
pulse width: 30%
Period : 250ms

will the electrical signal be: 20 pulses of 3.75 ms at a 80Hz frequency?
This signal will not be stopped before 250ms even if the controller delivers a -say- 100ms control duration?

Now, what would be the electrical signal if the switching function is set to 18 instead of 17?

Thanks in advance for your help

Fred

Edited by user 04 July 2016 06:54:03(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Offline efel  
#125 Posted : 09 July 2016 12:43:28(UTC)
efel

France   
Joined: 23/02/2005(UTC)
Posts: 800
Seems that m83/84 have still some mysteries...
Offline clapcott  
#126 Posted : 10 July 2016 04:18:03(UTC)
clapcott

New Zealand   
Joined: 12/12/2005(UTC)
Posts: 2,433
Location: Wellington, New_Zealand
Originally Posted by: efel Go to Quoted Post
Seems that m83/84 have still some mysteries...


This may be one way of looking at it.

Personally, and from information gathered and assessed to date, I think Marklin have totally lost the plot and have no concept or interest in doing anything more than lip service to the control aspect of a layout that they wont customers to run their trains on. As far as I can perceive they have very little empathy with layout control and what they understand customers actually want to do with with the trains they produce.

Their marketing is bad enough, their product support is ill resourced and their evident disinterest in providing a product that is capable of working to its full potential is only too apparent. In this later respect we must further contend with the interoperability issues of other components , specifically the control unit but also the Devices (turnout motors, DC motor support .....), that are also poorly supported.



Peter
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H0
Offline clapcott  
#127 Posted : 10 July 2016 04:20:16(UTC)
clapcott

New Zealand   
Joined: 12/12/2005(UTC)
Posts: 2,433
Location: Wellington, New_Zealand
Originally Posted by: efel Go to Quoted Post
Hi,

I have read this topic, but "period" and "pulse width" are not still clear to me.
Assuming I want to drive a 74490 point motor, using:

switching function :17
pulse width: 30%
Period : 250ms

will the electrical signal be: 20 pulses of 3.75 ms at a 80Hz frequency?
This signal will not be stopped before 250ms even if the controller delivers a -say- 100ms control duration?

Now, what would be the electrical signal if the switching function is set to 18 instead of 17?

Thanks in advance for your help

Fred


18 "detects" end stop cutout and stops driving power to the turnout
For functional use with a "good" 74491. But quite OK for those without cutout switches - just set a realistic period

Summary - leave the m83 with its defaults ....





Pulse width is just a geeky way of saying "brightness" or "% of power"
By varying the PWM value from 0 to 255 you
- vary a lamps brightness from 0 to 100% (of the available maximum)
- provide a weaker or stronger "oomph" to your turnout motors.

The inference being, that M-Track mechanisms are not as efficient as C-Track mechanism...
However this may also be perceived as a "work around" for C-Track mechanism failures with
- poorly designed "bounce back" detention. Less power means less chance of bouncing back and leaving the tongue in an intermediate state.
- underrated end cutoff switches. Less power MAY reduce the amount of contact arcing causing totally failure of the switch. The logic here is that any AC pulse must pass through "0" and thus facilitate the suppression of continued arcing.

for 30% of 255 use a value of 80.
But I suspect you are better of leaving it at the factory default of 100%(i.e. 255) to remove confusion, and address the turnout motor issue directly.

If you had a newer 74491 with 2 working end cutoff switches - you may want to use Mode 18

Period relates to the duration of the 'overall' pulse to the device.
(During the period, the actual signal may be pulsing to give the appropriate brightness/power)
OR
if you were using one of the fancy non-solinoid functions like Blinking, MARSing, etc. then the period is the duration between each blink.
For the florescent emulation the period is the time it splutters before settling to "ON". For Zoom it is the time to fade on and fade off.

Typically this has been around 1/5th to 1/4th of a second (200-250ms) for a device with a magnetic/solenoid device.
- In the 6021 days you could just hold your finger down longer if you wanted a device to energise longer (good example was an uncoupler)
- with the CS2, the controller definition for an individual accessory address could define and the period (energised) time. HOWEVER this doesn't stand up in practice


Switcing Function
Sticking to just the solinoid modes of ...
- 16 = Max. switching : “Period“ indicates the max. switching time
- 17 = Min. switching "“Period“ indicates the min. switching time
- 18 = "Min. switching with end switch Switching time is “period“ or until the end position is reached
... we need to understand two separate aspects.

1) The turnouts with end stop micro switches will (should) cutout the power to the solenoid when the end is reached. On the face of it, it is logically that if the controller m83 can detect this then in should stop wasting any more energy driving the port.
This is what Mode 18 offers.
This is most noticeable in testing, if you have nothing connected to the port - no mater how long you extend the period for, the observed pulse on the LED associated with the port will be seen for a very short time. (it turns on, determines no load, turns off)

NOTE: as per comment above aboult real world "bounce back" - in cases where the bounce back causes the end switch to make again then it WOULD be good to have the drive energy still available to correct -BUT this is not actually how the 74490 works Mad

2) Controller defined period (and its override).
Please understand here that a CS2 "currently" will send a "turn on" and "turn off" pair of commands regardless. e.g. "Address 83 Red, please energise" and then a "Address 83 Red, please de-energise". While this may offer more variation in what the CS2 can offer, it does mean that, for a majority of cases, it is wasting valuable processing time managing the timing and transmission of a followup secondary command.

To offload this function the delay handling may be delegated to the m83...

PLEASE NOTE THIS IS MY INTERPRETATION OF WHAT I BELIEVE THE M83 IS TRYING TO ACHIEVE.
BECAUSE OF THE WAY A CS2 GFP WORKS THIS JUST IS NOT ABLE TO WORK FULLY
BUT EVEN TESTING WITH A 602x CONTROL WITH SPECIFIC ON OFF COMMANDS MY CURRENT M83 DOES NOT PERFORM FULLY AS DOCUMENTED

THE MOST NOTABLE EXAMPLE IS THE INABILITY TO HOLD THE UNCOUPLER BUTTON DOWN WITHOUT IT PULSING

Mode 17
In some cases it is just convenient to say to the m83 "please pulse" and leave the m83 to do the work. This is where the mode 17 "Should" come in. A quick energise/deenergise will cause the m83 to start the pulse to the addressed port (e.g. 83Red) and use its own timer to define how long the pulse is actually on for.

BUT note the "Min Switching" reference.
What this "Might" mean is that IF the CS2 delays its "deenergise command" such that it is after the m83s period setting the port will STAY energised anyway.
One example of possible usage here would be an uncoupler, where you hold you finger on the button for an extended period, while the train moves into position.

The only flaw in this ideal, is that the CS2/m83 does not actually work this way (I actually believe it is BOTH a CS2 and a M83 issue (bug) ).
From my observation it is probably the CS2 is not playing the game, as it insists on sending a double energise/deenergise comand anyway AND if your finger is still on the button it just sends repeated PAIRS of commands so you end up with slow pulsing.

I do note that the software programming reference for the CS2 does provide commands to modify the GFP behaviour in the area of accessory usage.
But as far as I am concerned if you cannot achieve this with the UI it is impractical to pursue.

Mode 16
(Should be) Similar to 17 but with the emphasis on the "Max switching" rather than the min switching.

As above, because the CS2 insists on sending its pair of pulse, it is not possible to see this in operation as the CS2s command (pair) is always shorter than the Period setting (unless your eyes can detect the difference of a pulse down to 5ms).
That said, Even the 602x environment can't achieve/use this.


If anyone has a test case which does show these functions working as documented, I would love to hear them.
Peter
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Offline efel  
#128 Posted : 11 July 2016 13:32:32(UTC)
efel

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Joined: 23/02/2005(UTC)
Posts: 800
Thanks for that detailed answer, Peter

Originally Posted by: clapcott Go to Quoted Post
...
18 "detects" end stop cutout and stops driving power to the turnout...
.

Concerning switching function 18, when the end switch is opened, no current flows in the solenoid, and I can't see, then, the utility to stop sending "power" to the motor, for there is no longer power sent? (May be that allows to send power to another motor without waste of time, for the case there is several points to switch "simultaneously"?)

Thanks again,

Fred
Offline clapcott  
#129 Posted : 11 July 2016 22:09:24(UTC)
clapcott

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Joined: 12/12/2005(UTC)
Posts: 2,433
Location: Wellington, New_Zealand
Originally Posted by: efel Go to Quoted Post

Concerning switching function 18, when the end switch is opened, no current flows in the solenoid, and I can't see, then, the utility to stop sending "power" to the motor, for there is no longer power sent? (May be that allows to send power to another motor without waste of time, for the case there is several points to switch "simultaneously"?)


I am only reporting what has been gleaned from available documentation and my observations.
Generally I am open to permutations I may have missed or not been able to test, however I am not aware on any additional or qualifying information.

As to Why? .....
Speculation offers some mental stimulation for a short period of time. But after over three years since product announce, I really don't care anymore.



Peter
Offline clapcott  
#130 Posted : 25 July 2016 12:45:27(UTC)
clapcott

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Posts: 2,433
Location: Wellington, New_Zealand
FWIW

I have been informed of a frustrating behavior in the m84 that I had not bothered to test earlier.

I document it here in the hope it will save some time and hair-pulling and may also be useful in problem determination.

The issue relates to the manual connections identified collectively as SW7 in the users manual.
These allow for you to use an external trigger (switch) to turn the m84 relays on/off as an alternative to using the digital interface.

This is an observed and repeatable scenario, however variants have been reported.

It appears that the unit polls these connector ports regularly in the order from 8 to 1 but if it finds one that is energised - it does not scan further, before starting a new scan.
Thus if you are using fixed on/off switches instead of momentary switches (or if a switch is stuck) it will appear that some ports have failed.

e.g.
SW7 connector 4 (SW7-4) is energised and held that way.
This would normally activate port 2-Green (and by default deactivate 2-Red).

if , before deenergising SW7-4 , you ...
- subsequently pulse SW7-1 or SW7-2 (for 1-Red and 1-Green) nothing happens
- try SW7-5 to SW7-8 , and they switch normally

similarly if SW7-6 is stuck, then port pair 4 will be ok, but the port pairs 1&2 will not switch.

In summary - do not use on-off switches, or old 7072 blue-boxes that have warped and may "stick"
Go Figure....


Should you find a unit where this behavour does not occur , please feedback HW and SW version


Closing comment.
If you do use both Digital and manual control, the digital command will work
Peter
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Offline clapcott  
#131 Posted : 10 May 2017 01:12:46(UTC)
clapcott

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Location: Wellington, New_Zealand
Hallelujah


60832 Manual available
http://medienpdb.maerkli.../1/pdf/60832_betrieb.pdf
dated 283054/0317/Sc1Sh

While being just a piecemeal extension to the 6083 manual (no updates relating to 66360 power supply for example), the mfx capability is accompanied with a CV79 to allow succinct control of the 8 ports individually
NOTES:
1) CV79 is NOT tied to the mFX function. It just becomes available at the same time and can be set with MM/DCC
2) The CS2/3 templates do not show this CV, even though the recent CS3 update (v1.3.0(0) ) "Change Log" alluded to an update in this area


Comment : Limitations as documented are that all 8 ports operate with the same type of function
However Mode 3 states "Random AND Blinking", indicating that there may be a sub parameter available
I am (forever) hopeful that this translates to being a way "initially" set/reset all port modes but subsequent changes to the individual ports CVs will be possible. i.e. don't change CV79 again unless you want to overwrite changes made to individual ports.
If logic was to prevail this would simply mean that CV33 could have a value of 4 or 8.

Other technical information coming to light is the 200mA rating of each output. As per previous observations 200mA x 8 is 1.6Amps which occupies the bulk of a 66360 capability.
Therefore if you are likely to uses 200mA per port AND they are likely to be all on ... you cannot chain 2 m83s together - each would need its own power supply. (I suppose the extra might be sucked from the Red/Brown track supply , but that is getting deep)


CV 79 – Preset Operating Mode
With the preset operating modes, it is possible to move the decoder into a pre-defined operating mode without having to program all of the CV variables individually. The decoder then operates as building lighting, street lighting, etc.

Mode 0 (Value 0) – Standard Mode
In this mode of operation, the decoder occupies 4 addresses.
This is the mode as delivered from the factory. It is used to control 4 solenoid mechanisms with an end shutoff feature.

Mode 1 (Value 1) – 8 Switches, 4 Addresses
In this mode of operation, the decoder occupies 4 addresses.
Switching the outputs is done by means of momentary buttons (same button for on and off). An output is controlled by the red momentary button, and the green momentary button controls the second output.

Mode 2 (Value 2) – 8 Switches, 8 Addresses
In this mode of operation, the decoder occupies 8 addresses.
Switching the outputs is done by means of red/green buttons. Red switches the output off and green switches the output on. The brightness of the output can be set by the parameter dimmer. The period has no function.

Mode 3 (Value 3) – Blinking and Random, 8 Addresses
In this mode of operation, the decoder occupies 8 addresses.
Switching the outputs is done by means of a red/green button. Red switches the output off and green switches the output on. The decoder executes various blinking functions to simulate flickering lights or warning lights.

Mode 4 (Value 4) – Neon Street Lighting, 8 Addresses
In this mode of operation, the decoder occupies 8 addresses.
Switching the outputs is done by means of a red/green button. Red switches the output off and green switches the output on. This mode simulates the starting of neon tube lights. The brightness of the output can be set by the parameter dimmer. The period determines how long the flickering of the light tubes coming on lasts.

Mode 5 (Value 5) – Energy Saving Lighting, 8 Addresses
In this mode of operation, the decoder occupies 8 addresses.
Switching the outputs is done by means of a red/green button. Red switches the output off and green switches the output on. This mode simulates the starting of energy-saving lights or pressurized gas lamps. The brightness of the output can be set by the parameter dimmer. The period determines
how long the fading in of the lights lasts.


Now to wait and see how it actually works in practice.

Comment:
No comment about firmware levels that might indicate the 60831 is updateable. My 60831 with version 17 will not permit writing to CV79
Peter
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Offline clapcott  
#132 Posted : 14 May 2017 12:48:51(UTC)
clapcott

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Posts: 2,433
Location: Wellington, New_Zealand
As noted previously, with the exception of page 20 the 60832(m83.2) manual is essentially a cut'n'paste of the 60831(m83.1) manual (errors uncorrected).

This means that the section on addressing and the address table have not been update to reflect the range when in 8 Addresses mode.

I have quizzed Marklin as to whether the base address formula for the DIP switches is indeed "X x 4 - 3"
(where X is the binary value of switch position 1-9)

Whatever the outcome I would not expect an update to the manual in the near future. So be warned.

Technically I would prefer to have the address switches used as "X x 8 - 7".
However I can see that there might be reduced confusion in retaining the "X x 4 -3" formula. and adding 7 from there ...
i.e. an m83.2 with DIP addressing value = 2 would have a range from 5-12
Peter
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Offline clapcott  
#133 Posted : 16 May 2017 22:49:15(UTC)
clapcott

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Location: Wellington, New_Zealand
Ref 60832 manual page 20
"Operation with mfx"

This section/paragraph has a very brief introduction that mirrors the mFX signal products methodology for discovery. But is short on specifics.
In fact the reference to the CS3 "Search for mfx item" belies a reference to an ancient CS3 version - Currently @ 1.3.0(0) this reads "Discover mfx itmes"

Re: Note about mfx registration with the CS2
This correctly highlights that it is a CS2 global setting that determines if a newly discovered mfx item gets a new address or is allowed to retain its DIP switch address (even if it conflicts)
For comparison the CS3 discovery offers a prompt for this decision as you start each discovery. Note: it asks this up front, before it has attempted the scan, so it is not implying that it has detected a conflict.

Auto-configuration wise, not spelled out is that a signal has a (product) code to assist the CS identify what it is (Light/Semaphore , 2,3,4 aspect etc)
For the 60832 you may be detecting the "box" but the ports themselves are up to the user to define
Comment: Like the mfx Signal configuration for light fading/arm bounce, this really could be done a lot "friendlier" than having to type numbers into the correct holes.

One aspect that is discovered at the box level is the number of ports 4 or 8.
For non mFX user there is no reference to the work around handling of the m83.2 when in 8 port mode.

For now, until there is a CS update, the keyboard must be defined as two sets of 4.
As such, the DIP switch pictorial looses its integrity.

Comment: Marklin may like to take the opportunity to leverage the mFX discovery function - delaying a CS update for legacy support. However if the legacy support is not catered for and there is an integrity issue with what is shown , it should be commented on in the manual at the very least.


Peter
Offline clapcott  
#134 Posted : 19 May 2017 08:08:32(UTC)
clapcott

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Posts: 2,433
Location: Wellington, New_Zealand
A regression check on the 60822 finds that Marklin have an updated manual , dated Nov2016
http://medienpdb.maerkli.../1/pdf/60822_betrieb.pdf

It clarifies what has already been found from observation about where to feed the digital signal from for m83/m84.

Was ...
"In addition, the digital signal can be connected from track to the 60822 Power Supply Unit. Additional power feed to the m83/m84 decoders connected to the Power Supply Unit are not necessary"
Now ...
"The digital signal from the track (B/0) must be supplied at the first m83/m84 connected to the system."



The real question in my mind is "how does the digital signal get to the k83 as depicted in the following picture with all the "X" dead ends ?"
Do you need a m8* just to get the signal "backwards" ?

UserPostedImage
Peter
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Offline clapcott  
#135 Posted : 29 May 2017 07:46:42(UTC)
clapcott

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Location: Wellington, New_Zealand
Full support for the mfx configuration (registration) of the m83.2(60832) with a CS2 is still pending an update (expected?)
(This may come when when the long anticipated 32 function support is ready.)

Both the CS2 and CS3 CV template config files provided by Marklin have shortcomings, but unlike the mfx method you can create/modify your own files - or just write the CVs without a template file.

As per prior items, neither file has an English variant.
Peter
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Offline clapcott  
#136 Posted : 15 June 2017 08:51:35(UTC)
clapcott

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Location: Wellington, New_Zealand
Manual for 60842 available

http://medienpdb.maerkli.../1/pdf/60842_betrieb.pdf
- version ref = Apr2017 283061/0417/Sc1Sh - first GA release - 60841 base PLUS mfx registration and CV79 for 8 switch mode

As advertised, mfx registration possible
Like the 60832, "8 address" modes available with a selection of operational functions

CV 79 – Preset Operating Mode
With the preset operating modes, it is possible to move the decoder into a pre-defined operating mode without having
to program all of the CV variables individually. The decoder then operates as building lighting, street lighting, etc.

Mode 0 (Value 0) – Standard Mode
In this mode of operation, the decoder occupies 4 addresses.
This is the mode as delivered from the factory. Executes the familiar m84 switching mode.

Mode 1 (Value 1) – 8 Switches, 4 Addresses
Mode function ensured only with Märklin central unit controllers.
In this mode of operation, the decoder occupies 4 addresses.
Switching the outputs is done by means of momentary buttons (same button for on and off). An output is controlled by the red momentary button, and the green momentary button controls the second output.

Mode 2 (Value 2) – 8 Switches, 8 Addresses
In this mode of operation, the decoder occupies 8 addresses.
Switching the outputs is done by means of red/green buttons. Red switches the output off and green switches the output on.

Mode 3 (Value 3) – Blinking and Random, 8 Addresses
In this mode of operation, the decoder occupies 8 addresses.
Switching the outputs is done by means of a red/green button. Red switches the output off and green switches the output on.
The decoder executes various blinking functions to simulate blinking warning lights or billboard lights.

Mode 4 (Value 4) – Random Building Lighting, 8 Addresses
In this mode of operation, the decoder occupies 8 addresses.
Switching the outputs is done by means of a red/green button. Red switches the output off and green switches the output on.
The decoder executes various random functions for lighting buildings


Note:
The manual does not list the full list of CVs - these can be seen/used in a CS2/CS3

Comment:
Like with the 60831 , Using CV79 is just a "easy start" tool. It sets all ports to a particular mode
However, while the 4/8 address mode is global to the unit, the individual ports may be configured separately.
Peter
Offline clapcott  
#137 Posted : 16 June 2017 22:58:29(UTC)
clapcott

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Posts: 2,433
Location: Wellington, New_Zealand
At this juncture, with the m83.2 (60832) and m84.3 (60842) recently available purporting mfx support, I think it is important to reiterate that mfx needs two to tango.

While a mfx device may respond to queries with codes and values, the control station needs to have an external awareness of what those codes mean before it can present information in a constructive manner.

Right now , neither the CS2 not CS3 fully support the 60832/60842 registration or configuration. and what is available is piecemeal requiring reediting and workaround jumps from one place to another.

For example.
Unlike the mfx signals , where the product code defines the type of signal face to use, in its most basic form the CS3 registers all four ports of a 60832 as "left turnouts".
The CS3 accessory configuration edit screens make it laborious to edit the icon quickly (e.g. for signals), as it subsequently presents only turnout options as alternatives, until you first delete it (no article) and manually go through the process to add a new one anyway (selecting existing decoder as needed).

While functional, this hopping around is just unwarranted and a hindrance to operator enjoyment.
* It would be desirable to have the registration wizard ask these questions as as the unit was being discovered.

For the more advanced (8 address mode) the registration just has no concept, you have to dummy up the second group of 4, and if the original registration has picked a gap with something already after it - then even more reediting is needed.
* As above, the wizard should prompt for this information as part of the registration making things far more , meaningful, efficient and enjoyable.

Note: There is a CS3 bug with a new registration attempting to "wrap around" an existing lone item (e.g. mfx signal)
* Do not use the "Get a New Address" when doing a mfx discovery

The "output" configuration panel has huge potential, but one has to wonder why "Smoke" is an option (using mfx block 6, instead of a modified block 11)
* This is the type of friendlier presentation that is needed - HOWEVER retaining the geeky numbers of 0.05 seconds and ratio of 255 is not helpful. It is simple to just ask for the "# of seconds" or "percentage" and do the geeky work in the background.

In summary,
By all means explore and experiment to your own interest level needs
But - until there is major improvement in the CS user interface both cosmetically and ergonomically ...

If you are just needing a m83.2 for its k83 capability
a) use the dip switches for address
b) and create the icons in the traditional MM or DCC

If you do want the advanced "mode" options
a) use the existing DCC CV configuration - to set the "mode" (CV 33 = 4/8 = number of addresses) and then the port level characteristics
b) and create the icons in the traditional MM or DCC
Peter
Offline clapcott  
#138 Posted : 18 June 2017 02:10:23(UTC)
clapcott

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Location: Wellington, New_Zealand
m83.2 and m84.2
The documentation about the advanced modes makes reference to Random settings.

Below is a table of what these random values are, from field observation they are actually a fixed set of random values.
Note: Preset mode options - CV79 - appear similar for m83.2 and m84.2 however mode 5 is for m83.2 only

In the case of ...
- Mode 3 they relate to the port functions being a variety of options
- Modes 3,4,5 they extend to a random period value

In all cases, Modes 0-5, the preset pulse widths are all 255 = 100% = Full Brightness

(Options descriptions are those presented via the CS3 mfx configuration screen - no English translation - shown here for crossreference. The CS2 does not know how to describe "Mfx-Tag 34" so you just enter the mode number 0-5 as you would for CV79)
-CV79-
Mode 0 - "Default"..........................All ports set to function 18 = Minimum Switch with End Stop (Sensor switching)
Mode 1 - "8 Eltako, 4 Adressen"............ All ports set to function 129 = Toggle ON
Mode 2 - "8 Schalter, 8 Adressen".......... All ports set to function 1 = Pulse On
Mode 3 - "Blinken und Zufall, 8 Adressen"... (see below for function ID and period)
Mode 4 - "Beleuchtung, 8 Adressen"..........All ports set to function 13 = Pulse Florescent Tubes (flicker on start)
............................................ (see below for random period)
Mode 5 - "Energiesparbel.(m83), 8 Adressen".All ports set to function 14 = Pulse Neon (Glow and slowly brighten)
............................................ (see below for random period)
Mode 6 - "Modulus 6" .......................(CS3 reference alluded to in Output configuration panel)
............................................ does not translate into m83.2 i.e. same effect as mode 0)

m83.2
.......--------- Mode 3 ---------....- Mode 4 -....- Mode 5 -
..........Function.... ..Period........Period........Period..
Ports
..=============== ==========....==========....==========
1R.....10=Gyro.........90=4.50sec....35=1.75sec....30=1.50sec
1G.....10=Gyro.........20=1.00sec....25=1.25sec....37=1.85sec
2R..... 6=Rand/Flicker.20=1.00sec....33=1.65sec....32=1.60sec
2G..... 5=Flash #2.....17=0.85sec....20=1.00sec....55=2.75sec
3R..... 5=Flash #2.....17=0.85sec....38=1.90sec....44=2.20sec
3G..... 4=Flash #1.....10=0.50sec....25=1.25sec....36=1.80sec
4R..... 4=Flash #1.....10=0.50sec....33=1.65sec....54=2.70sec
4G..... 9=Mars.........20=1.00sec....40=2.00sec....70=3.50sec


Emphasising that setting CV79 set the initial values, it is quite possible to change these individually.

Note/Comment: The CV79 preset function does not alter CV34/35 (the dual port handling CVs for 3-Way turnouts and double slips). In modes other than "0" these two CVs are ignored.

m84.2
.......--------- Mode 3 ----------....- Mode 4 -....
..........Function.... ..Period.........Period......
Ports
..================ ==========....==========....
1R..... 2=Blink #1...... 2=2.00sec....20=20.0sec....
1G..... 3=Blink #2...... 2=2.00sec....40=40.0sec....
2R..... 2=Blink #1...... 5=5.00sec....35=35.0sec....
2G..... 3=Blink #2...... 5=5.00sec....60=60.0sec....
3R..... 2=Blink #1..... 50=25.0sec....12=12.0sec....
3G..... 3=Blink #2..... 50=25.0sec....44=44.0sec....
4R..... 6=Random.......100=50.0sec....70=70.0sec....
4G..... 6=Random.......100=50.0sec....56=56.0sec....

Edited by user 08 July 2017 06:18:42(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Peter
Offline clapcott  
#139 Posted : 22 June 2017 03:11:03(UTC)
clapcott

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Posts: 2,433
Location: Wellington, New_Zealand
Workaround for 4 port toggling

Provided you are prepared to accept the involvement of a PC. - a workaround exists to cater for the toggling of individual ports when the m8*.* is in 4 address mode -

In 4 port mode, ports may only be toggled from the CS - e.g. press the "1-Green" button once and the port one turns on, press it again and it turns off.
While the human eye/brain may compensate for this, there is no way for a memory sequence to know if a port is already on or off.

The solution arises because configuration with DCC POM and now (60832/60842) MFX may be done dynamically without affecting the other ports on the unit
(This compares with using the programming track in either DCC/CV or MM/REG modes, which does cause the whole unit to reset and blink as either a read or write is done)

What is possible is - Not to turn a port on or off, but to permanently leave the port on - AND then change what "ON" actually means.
This might be either the Prime function mode, the PWM value (Brightness) or Period (if applicable), and can be done by issuing a dynamic configuration command.
Note: Of course the same can be done using the configuration panels, but you do not want to do that every time a light is to be turned on or off

via the PC, using a DCC command is easier to construct than MFX as you can directly address the port(m8x lowest port) without having to lookup and translate a MFX ID(Serial number) to its effective address.

As an example ...
- sending a configure command for mode of 128 will simulate "Off" and a 129 "On" (Dimmer)
- or you may leave the function alone (i.e. 129 = Dimmer) and play with the brightness using 0 or 255 to produce Off and On respectively.
This option immediately opens the possibility of setting multiple interim dimming settings.

In practice a PC program could have a button that you click on, that then sends the commands
OR
It might be set to monitor (sniff) a different proxy address from the CS and when its detects specific Red/Green commands , translate these to brightness=0(red) or 255(green)
By doing the later, the PC program runs in the background and you maintain control at the CS.

Other possible uses
- variation in dimming levels
- change a light from On (solid) to Blinking
- change the speed of a motor (using the 60821)
- servo
- adjusting the period of a blink (from slow to fast)
- facilitate using a single m8*.* device for traditional devices (point/signals) on some ports while using the others individually (for LED lighting).
Peter
Offline Ross  
#140 Posted : 23 June 2017 02:24:26(UTC)
Ross

Australia   
Joined: 25/09/2006(UTC)
Posts: 867
Location: Sydney, NSW
Hello Peter/All,

I have written the article below which illustrates what Peter is talking about. It includes 4 small video clips to illustrate points in the text.

I hope you all find it useful.

m83 Article

Originally Posted by: clapcott Go to Quoted Post
Workaround for 4 port toggling


Ross
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Offline siroljuk  
#141 Posted : 23 June 2017 07:35:31(UTC)
siroljuk

Finland   
Joined: 29/10/2010(UTC)
Posts: 377
Excellent work Peter and RossThumpUp ThumpUp ThumpUp

Very interesting and high quality information first from Peter and then A great and illustrative PDF from Ross.

I really appreciate this type of work and its informationCool Cool

I hope you will continue to do this kind of research.

Regards

Jukka
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by siroljuk
Offline clapcott  
#142 Posted : 25 June 2017 04:52:45(UTC)
clapcott

New Zealand   
Joined: 12/12/2005(UTC)
Posts: 2,433
Location: Wellington, New_Zealand
Originally Posted by: Ross Go to Quoted Post
Hello Peter/All,

I have written the article below which illustrates what Peter is talking about. It includes 4 small video clips to illustrate points in the text.

I hope you all find it useful.

m83 Article

Originally Posted by: clapcott Go to Quoted Post
Workaround for 4 port toggling



Nice article Ross, and well presented videos.

You raise a very good point that the timers for each port start when the item is turned on and that trying to get two ports either in sync or out of sync (crossing lights) requires a fudge factor included.

It would be remiss of us not to acknowledge the use of an external power supply for the m83's and m84's when covering the "memory" loss subject.
Unlike the m83, the m84 does retain a knowledge of its state before/after a power spike but usually it is in a very undesirable anyway
Other business reasons for using an external power supply ...
- mitigate the pulsing (especially visual lights) when another item (especially solenoid turnouts and signals) are pulsed
- power requirements - each port of a m83 can have up to 0.5Amp load on constantly (total m83 = 3 Amp rated)
- reliable CV reading (especially with a MS2 which drop bits turning e.g. value of 18 into a 2)

Regarding the "cyclic switching of ports" this is an issue with the common use icons (Turnout, Signal, Lights) that use toggle mode (ECoS, CS1).
However the use of Uncoupler icon, or Routes(Memory) that only concern themselves with a single port might be considered.


In the section about using TrianController used to track the toggles of a port, I presume the controller is also monitoring other toggle commands from outside its control - i.e. from the ECoS itself , Smartphone , Loconet ...

For the m8* in 4port mode, These are all mechanisms to mitigate the effect of having to put up with the toggling in the m8x device ports.
In my post the other day (#139), I was actually suggesting taking the toggling out of the equation (leave the port on always) and control the output by varying its configuration dynamically - either with a change the brightness (0 to 255) or a change of the actual function type .

I have not explored the CS1(ECoS) architecture in this area - it may not be possible to do inline configuration commands like the CS2/CS3

Edited by user 26 June 2017 04:25:41(UTC)  | Reason: spelling/grammar

Peter
Offline Ross  
#143 Posted : 27 June 2017 02:33:53(UTC)
Ross

Australia   
Joined: 25/09/2006(UTC)
Posts: 867
Location: Sydney, NSW
Hi Peter/All,

I'll comment below to your comments but first I must say I like your engineers look at the Märklin system components.

Originally Posted by: clapcott Go to Quoted Post

Nice article Ross, and well presented videos.

I'm glad you liked the article and videos as you know it takes an enormous amount of time to put together.

Originally Posted by: clapcott Go to Quoted Post

You raise a very good point that the timers for each port start when the item is turned on and that trying to get two ports either in sync or out of sync (crossing lights) requires a fudge factor included.

Since I have intergrated the signal tower into my layout I have noticed getting the sync or out of sync flashing is affected by how busy the digital traffic is on the central unit. It is sometimes noticeable that the sync isn't correct.

Originally Posted by: clapcott Go to Quoted Post

It would be remiss of us not to acknowledge the use of an external power supply for the m83's and m84's when covering the "memory" loss subject.
Unlike the m83, the m84 does retain a knowledge of its state before/after a power spike but usually it is in a very undesirable anyway
Other business reasons for using an external power supply ...
- mitigate the pulsing (especially visual lights) when another item (especially solenoid turnouts and signals) are pulsed
- power requirements - each port of a m83 can have up to 0.5Amp load on constantly (total m83 = 3 Amp rated)
- reliable CV reading (especially with a MS2 which drop bits turning e.g. value of 18 into a 2)

I have multiple boosters feeding my layout where all m83/m84 components are kept separate from any track boosters.
I agree that solenoid turnouts and signals need to be separate from the m83 light switching circuits.
Where did you get the figure 0.5amp load for each port?

Originally Posted by: clapcott Go to Quoted Post

Regarding the "cyclic switching of ports" this is an issue with the common use icons (Turnout, Signal, Lights) that use toggle mode (ECoS, CS1).
However the use of Uncoupler icon, or Routes(Memory) that only concern themselves with a single port might be considered.

On the ECoS the switchboard for switching points, signals and lights isn't flexible enough. Each switchboard has 16 slots (4x m83/k83) and if we want to only switch the red or green port of a m83 for lights there isn't a symbol for a pulsed duration that can be represented in one switchboard slot for the red/green port that gives clear indication of the state of each port. I see a 3 way point expand to show all switch options it would be nice the have the same for red/green ports to switch lights and uncouplers.

Originally Posted by: clapcott Go to Quoted Post

In the section about using TrianController used to track the toggles of a port, I presume the controller is also monitoring other toggle commands from outside its control - i.e. from the ECoS itself , Smartphone , Loconet ...

All commands from the ECoS can be monitored in TrainController by some method.

Originally Posted by: clapcott Go to Quoted Post

For the m8* in 4port mode, These are all mechanisms to mitigate the effect of having to put up with the toggling in the m8x device ports.
In my post the other day (#139), I was actually suggesting taking the toggling out of the equation (leave the port on always) and control the output by varying its configuration dynamically - either with a change the brightness (0 to 255) or a change of the actual function type .

I have not explored the CS1(ECoS) architecture in this area - it may not be possible to do inline configuration commands like the CS2/CS3

I don't think that the m83 was designed to dynamically change values without affecting the entire m83. POM is possible but first you have to select the correct m83 module then once you start programming a port all other ports switch off until programming is complete and as the m83 doesn't have a memory all ports would have to be switched back on to their last known state.

I don't know the CS2/3 architecture but as long I can control my trains in an easy manor I find I'm less reliant to favour one brand over another.

Keep up the good work Peter.



Ross
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Offline clapcott  
#144 Posted : 27 June 2017 11:14:13(UTC)
clapcott

New Zealand   
Joined: 12/12/2005(UTC)
Posts: 2,433
Location: Wellington, New_Zealand
Originally Posted by: Ross Go to Quoted Post

Originally Posted by: clapcott Go to Quoted Post

It would be remiss of us not to acknowledge the use of an external power supply for the m83's and m84's when covering the "memory" loss subject.
Unlike the m83, the m84 does retain a knowledge of its state before/after a power spike but usually it is in a very undesirable anyway
Other business reasons for using an external power supply ...
- mitigate the pulsing (especially visual lights) when another item (especially solenoid turnouts and signals) are pulsed
- power requirements - each port of a m83 can have up to 0.5Amp load on constantly (total m83 = 3 Amp rated)
- reliable CV reading (especially with a MS2 which drop bits turning e.g. value of 18 into a 2)

I have multiple boosters feeding my layout where all m83/m84 components are kept separate from any track boosters.
I agree that solenoid turnouts and signals need to be separate from the m83 light switching circuits.

The issue with using boosters is that they will switch off when you press stop on the host controller.
While (for a CS2) only the affected booster will turn off if a short occurs - the issue (wirh the CS2/CS3) is that you sometimes need to press the stop button on and off to reactivate - thus causing interference with all boosters.

An external 6636* powering the m83/m84 mitigates this issue.

Quote:
Where did you get the figure 0.5amp load for each port?

A Valid Challenge.

The per-port rating comes from the 60821 manual - page 4 for English
http://medienpdb.maerkli.../1/pdf/60821_betrieb.pdf
As the motor direction is generated from either the Red or Green port the rating for a single port is therefore capable of 500mA.

However, this is implicated as a port pair, with only one of the two ports actually driving the motor at any given time, so the max m83 power with 4 motors is 2Amp

Seperately, the 60832 manual - page 21 in English
http://medienpdb.maerkli.../1/pdf/60832_betrieb.pdf
... documents 200mA per port - summing to 1.8Amps

The 3Amp per m83 is found in the marketting doco....
https://www.maerklin.de/...ts/details/article/60832
... indicating a bit of a safety margin.


Peter
Offline clapcott  
#145 Posted : 27 June 2017 12:27:14(UTC)
clapcott

New Zealand   
Joined: 12/12/2005(UTC)
Posts: 2,433
Location: Wellington, New_Zealand
Originally Posted by: Ross Go to Quoted Post

Originally Posted by: clapcott Go to Quoted Post

For the m8* in 4port mode, These are all mechanisms to mitigate the effect of having to put up with the toggling in the m8x device ports.
In my post the other day (#139), I was actually suggesting taking the toggling out of the equation (leave the port on always) and control the output by varying its configuration dynamically - either with a change the brightness (0 to 255) or a change of the actual function type .

I have not explored the CS1(ECoS) architecture in this area - it may not be possible to do inline configuration commands like the CS2/CS3


I don't think that the m83 was designed to dynamically change values without affecting the entire m83. POM is possible but first you have to select the correct m83 module then once you start programming a port all other ports switch off until programming is complete and as the m83 doesn't have a memory all ports would have to be switched back on to their last known state.


This is not borne out by my observation.

While using the programming track for REG(MM) or CV(DCC) configuration does cause the unit to reset as you describe, using POM or mfx reconfiguration does not impose this problem and only affects the addressed port witin the unit relating to the CV.

This is irrespective of whether an external power supply is powering the m83 or not

A small video showing that changes to a single port can be done without affecting the other ports.



The point of this is not to do it as a manual function (labouriously navigating through screens) but to use the PC to issue the commands just as you would operating a normal signal/turnout accessory - slightly different command codes of course to invoke the DCC POM (or mFX)

Disclaimer - at least not on my CS, I do not have an ECoS to compare.

Reminder: This sub-topic is aimed at the m83.1 (60831) which does not have 8 port addressing capability

Edited by user 29 June 2017 03:49:00(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Peter
Offline Ross  
#146 Posted : 28 June 2017 09:22:07(UTC)
Ross

Australia   
Joined: 25/09/2006(UTC)
Posts: 867
Location: Sydney, NSW
Hi Peter,

Thanks for the update and clarification of amps per channel.

As for supplying an external power supply to the m83/m84 are you saying that you can use a 66361/66365 power pack direct to the m83?
I'm a little confused here as it states in the catalogue "It is possible to have an outside power supply such as the 66361/66365, only in conjunction with the 60822 Universal Supply Unit"
If the 60822 is required then it is a very expensive option to have external power.

Do you mean POM when you mentioned "it may not be possible to do inline configuration commands"?

I haven't tried the POM option with the ECoS as I think it is very easy to make a mistake and select the wrong m83 module then program the wrong selected module if your documentation isn't up to date.


Originally Posted by: clapcott Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Ross Go to Quoted Post

Originally Posted by: clapcott Go to Quoted Post

For the m8* in 4port mode, These are all mechanisms to mitigate the effect of having to put up with the toggling in the m8x device ports.
In my post the other day (#139), I was actually suggesting taking the toggling out of the equation (leave the port on always) and control the output by varying its configuration dynamically - either with a change the brightness (0 to 255) or a change of the actual function type .

I have not explored the CS1(ECoS) architecture in this area - it may not be possible to do inline configuration commands like the CS2/CS3


I don't think that the m83 was designed to dynamically change values without affecting the entire m83. POM is possible but first you have to select the correct m83 module then once you start programming a port all other ports switch off until programming is complete and as the m83 doesn't have a memory all ports would have to be switched back on to their last known state.


This is not borne out by my observation.

While using the programming track for REG(MM) or CV(DCC) configuration does cause the unit to reset as you describe, using POM or mfx reconfiguration does not impose this problem and only affects the addressed port witin the unit relating to the CV.

This is irrespective of whether an external power supply is powering the m83 or not

Disclaimer - at least not on my CS, I do not have an ECoS to compare.


Ross
Offline clapcott  
#147 Posted : 28 June 2017 11:11:00(UTC)
clapcott

New Zealand   
Joined: 12/12/2005(UTC)
Posts: 2,433
Location: Wellington, New_Zealand
Originally Posted by: Ross Go to Quoted Post
Hi Peter,

As for supplying an external power supply to the m83/m84 are you saying that you can use a 66361/66365 power pack direct to the m83?
I'm a little confused here as it states in the catalogue "It is possible to have an outside power supply such as the 66361/66365, only in conjunction with the 60822 Universal Supply Unit"
If the 60822 is required then it is a very expensive option to have external power.
Personally I do not use a 60822. And am making fine use of my 66361's.

Marklin have not satisfied me with sufficient reasoning - or commitment
If they were serious about the assertion, there would be no power jack on the m8x full stop

Also, since the original m83/m84 GA'd, they have updated the 66361/66365 to 66360/66367 so if there was a techincal problem it should have been well and truly sorted out with these new PS and the new m8x designs.

In addition it means good ROI for the PS and MS2 from those starter sets only "needed" for their loco and stock

Quote:
Do you mean POM when you mentioned "it may not be possible to do inline configuration commands"?
Yes - or mfx for the m83.2 (60832)

I have added a YouTube link to my last post. It simply demonstrates that a dynamic configuration can be done (in this case from a PC program) without affecting other ports.

Quote:
I haven't tried the POM option with the ECoS as I think it is very easy to make a mistake and select the wrong m83 module then program the wrong selected module if your documentation isn't up to date.
The TCP and command protocol for the ECoS/CS1 is quite different from the CS2/CS3. I haven't revisited the CS1 in this exercise

From a PC point of view, sending the command for a reconfiguration to the designated m83 for a port should be a low risk (once developed and QA'd)
Peter
Offline Ross  
#148 Posted : 29 June 2017 01:05:09(UTC)
Ross

Australia   
Joined: 25/09/2006(UTC)
Posts: 867
Location: Sydney, NSW
Hi Peter,

Thanks for the update.

I tried to look at your video but the link address has an "edit" in it and I keep getting my own YouTube channel. Here is the correct link below.



What isn't shown in the video is how the input for POM was done. Did you have a script/programme or did you manually input the CV changes?

Have you found a powerpack non Marklin that will work with NZ/Aus plug configuration? I dislike the use of power plug adaptors.
Ross
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Offline clapcott  
#149 Posted : 10 July 2017 01:02:59(UTC)
clapcott

New Zealand   
Joined: 12/12/2005(UTC)
Posts: 2,433
Location: Wellington, New_Zealand
Originally Posted by: Ross Go to Quoted Post
Have you found a powerpack non Marklin that will work with NZ/Aus plug configuration? I dislike the use of power plug adaptors.


I have not pursued this angle.

Most laptop power supplies these days are either 19 or 20 v and meet the general power spec ...
BUT there is NO spec for the inrush/surge that is expected when pulsing a solinoid device

Peter
Offline clapcott  
#150 Posted : 10 July 2017 01:08:14(UTC)
clapcott

New Zealand   
Joined: 12/12/2005(UTC)
Posts: 2,433
Location: Wellington, New_Zealand
If you have persevered and got your m83.2 or m84.2 registered with a CS2, you will find that a Bug in the "Output" configuration screen prevents you from selecting (opening) the dropdown menu in the usual manner to change the port configuration.


TIP:

If you hold down you stylus/finger you may hold the window open and slide your finger/stylus to choose the new option before releasing.

Should the option you want be up/down the list, then as above hold the stylus on the open window and slide to the scrollbar on the right. Releasing your finger/stylus in this area will keep the dialogue window open and you may tap/select in the traditional manner
Peter
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