Semaphore signal Viessmann 4500 and digital decoder Viessmann 5211

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Semaphore signal Viessmann 4500 and digital decoder Viessmann 5211 - Wiring semaphore Vi 4500 with vi 5211 digital decoder

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nasargy		#1 Posted : 14 September 2015 10:24:40(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 19/03/2009(UTC) Posts: 12 Location: Paralia Distomou , Distomo		Hi every one, I have a marklin layout in HO and I'm using Mobile Station2 to control my locos. Recently I needed to install the no 4500 semaphore signal by Viessmann to a secondary line. For this reason I used circuit tracks by marklin (24294 and 24194) for controling, the semaphore signal Viessmann 4500 and the digital decoder Viessmann 5211. The main power feed (red, brown wires) was from the track (digital) and I've used my old blue transfo for lighting purposes of the sempahore signal (brown wire with diode and yellow wire with resistor). In the first place, I have checked the semaphore by connecting the yellow wire (without resistor) directly to my blue transfo, and I have touched to the brown input of the transfo briefly, first the blue wire with the red tag (the semaphore has turned to red) and then briefly as well, I have touched the blue wire with the green tag (the semaphore has turned to green). So the main function of the semaphore seems to be ok as well as the light of the semaphore. Although I have wired the signal 4500 accordingly to the instruction manual of the 5211 decoder. But when I activate the circuit tracks 24294 or 24194 I have to put the rotative switch of the transfo to the middle position (at least to 100) as to make the signal arm to move (Hpo - Stop or Hp1 - proceed) . When the rotative switch is on position "0" the arm of the signal doesn't respond at all. Another point, more important, is that I can't make the semaphore signal control the train . Even if I tried many times by using insulations and wiring as show in the file (excel) attached wiring semaphore signal with 5211 module.xlsx (18kb) downloaded 45 time(s)., the result is unfortunately the same : nothing at all . The loco keep going on the track whatever the semaphore signal is on Hp0 (stop) or on Hp1 (proceed) position. I suppose that if I'm asking, additionaly, how to connect the semaphore distant signal Viessmann 4509 to move its disk when it is activated the appropriate circuit track, will be a luxury... Please help me to find the right answer. Thanks
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Goofy		#2 Posted : 14 September 2015 18:25:26(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC) Posts: 9,019		First of all about the loco doesn´t stop...did you isolated the track area to control the loco via signal? For the second...don´t use the old blue trafo. Viessmanns semaphore are sensible to feed the power to the motor. For the third...circuit tracks feeding...brown to the first connect of the circuit track and the feeding must been from the trafo or the rail...blue wire from the semaphore to the circuit track. The yellow wire from the semaphore to the trafo. The second blue wire from the semaphore is to use control via decoder 5211,by press "go".
		H0 DCC = Digital Command Control


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nasargy		#3 Posted : 15 September 2015 15:21:52(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 19/03/2009(UTC) Posts: 12 Location: Paralia Distomou , Distomo		Originally Posted by: Goofy First of all about the loco doesn´t stop...did you isolated the track area to control the loco via signal? For the second...don´t use the old blue trafo. Viessmanns semaphore are sensible to feed the power to the motor. For the third...circuit tracks feeding...brown to the first connect of the circuit track and the feeding must been from the trafo or the rail...blue wire from the semaphore to the circuit track. The yellow wire from the semaphore to the trafo. The second blue wire from the semaphore is to use control via decoder 5211,by press "go". Hi Goofy Thanks for your answer. It was so kind of you to to do so. Now let's begin : 1. You asked me if I 've isolated the track in order to control the loco via signal. Yes I did so. This is the point, isn't it? To control loco via the signal? Make the loco "go" or "stop" accordignly to the sempahore arm position (hp0 - hp1). 2. You said that I have not to use the old blue transfo. Ok. But where to connect the brown and yellow wires with diode and resistor respectively? Perhaps to another transfo. 3. The circuit track has a printed circuit-board (beneath the track) It has 3 terminals: one for the brown wire which one end is soldered to the board and the other end is connected to the O of the C-track. The other 2 terminals are for the blue wires and depends of the direction of circulation of the loco : the manual suggest to connect the blue wire to the terminal which is at the opposite direction of the move of loco. I'm sorry but I don't understand if you are suggesting something else. 4. ok for the yellow wire 5. I 'm lost, please repeat Thank you for your time.
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French_Fabrice		#4 Posted : 15 September 2015 21:58:11(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 16/05/2011(UTC) Posts: 1,476 Location: Lyon, France		Hi Nasargy, I may be wrong, but I think you're seriously mixing things Preamble: I don't have personally an experience of mixing a loco digital command with analog command of turnouts/signals, nor an experience of a MS2. But I have a good understanding of digital system since more than 20 years (today with a CS2 and full computer driven layout), and the same experience about pure analog layout. I repeat, I may be wrong, and in such a case other forum members are welcome to correct my mistakes, but until so far, let's suppose I'm right... 1) I don't understand the purpose of the 5211 decoder, if you want to drive the signal with circuit tracks. The Viessmann 5211 is the equivalent of the old marklin K83 decoder (ref 6083). The purpose of such a decoder is to drive turnouts or legacy signals (the Viessmann 4500 semaphore belongs to this category) from a numeric interface (i.e. either from the Keyboard interface of a CS2/MS2 or a computer), and not an analog one. In other words, the 5211 has a base address you set with dip-switches inside. This base address (A) allows to drive up to four turnouts/signals starting at address A up to address A+3. So, if you set the base address of the 5211 to 1 and plug the 3 command wires of the signal (yellow, blue/red and blue/green) to group 1 of 5211, then you are able to change the semaphore position using the MS2 Keyboard interface, on address 1. 2) I'm afraid you cannot connect the signal for digital command thru the MS2, AND thru the circuit tracks at the same time, except using a CS2 (with a S88 interface) and a S88 decoder connected to the circuit tracks plugs and linked to the CS2 S88 interface. In the later case, both command thru the 5211 AND the circuit tracks is possible. I've drawn a schema of how to connect the MS2, and the 4500 to an analog transformer and the circuit tracks. A few explanations: - Circuit tracks are located at both ends (it's an example). When the slider of the loco passes over the rocker of circuit track #1 (right hand-side), from right to left, it triggers the green command of the signal; When the loco passes over the rocker of circuit track #2, it triggers the red command of the signal. This example is not very representative of a useful automation, but it's only an example. Read the doc (or download it from Marklin web site) of the 24194 circuit track, the example shown is more useful. - The light transformer has a L plug (for light). This output has a permanent 16V. Do not use the "red" output of the light transfo (it it has one), and NEVER connect "red" from light transfomer to MS2 "red" wire. Before using this schema, I'd like other forum members to confirm If I'm right or not. I repeat, I don't have experience of such an arrangement. The schema provided is done based on my current knowledge and deductions. Hope that helps... Cheers Fabrice Edited by user 16 September 2015 20:27:45(UTC) \| Reason: Not specified

2 users liked this useful post by French_Fabrice		BrandonVA, Brakeman
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nasargy		#5 Posted : 17 September 2015 12:55:31(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 19/03/2009(UTC) Posts: 12 Location: Paralia Distomou , Distomo		Originally Posted by: French_Fabrice Hi Nasargy, I may be wrong, but I think you're seriously mixing things Preamble: I don't have personally an experience of mixing a loco digital command with analog command of turnouts/signals, nor an experience of a MS2. But I have a good understanding of digital system since more than 20 years (today with a CS2 and full computer driven layout), and the same experience about pure analog layout. I repeat, I may be wrong, and in such a case other forum members are welcome to correct my mistakes, but until so far, let's suppose I'm right... 1) I don't understand the purpose of the 5211 decoder, if you want to drive the signal with circuit tracks. The Viessmann 5211 is the equivalent of the old marklin K83 decoder (ref 6083). The purpose of such a decoder is to drive turnouts or legacy signals (the Viessmann 4500 semaphore belongs to this category) from a numeric interface (i.e. either from the Keyboard interface of a CS2/MS2 or a computer), and not an analog one. In other words, the 5211 has a base address you set with dip-switches inside. This base address (A) allows to drive up to four turnouts/signals starting at address A up to address A+3. So, if you set the base address of the 5211 to 1 and plug the 3 command wires of the signal (yellow, blue/red and blue/green) to group 1 of 5211, then you are able to change the semaphore position using the MS2 Keyboard interface, on address 1. 2) I'm afraid you cannot connect the signal for digital command thru the MS2, AND thru the circuit tracks at the same time, except using a CS2 (with a S88 interface) and a S88 decoder connected to the circuit tracks plugs and linked to the CS2 S88 interface. In the later case, both command thru the 5211 AND the circuit tracks is possible. I've drawn a schema of how to connect the MS2, and the 4500 to an analog transformer and the circuit tracks. A few explanations: - Circuit tracks are located at both ends (it's an example). When the slider of the loco passes over the rocker of circuit track #1 (right hand-side), from right to left, it triggers the green command of the signal; When the loco passes over the rocker of circuit track #2, it triggers the red command of the signal. This example is not very representative of a useful automation, but it's only an example. Read the doc (or download it from Marklin web site) of the 24194 circuit track, the example shown is more useful. - The light transformer has a L plug (for light). This output has a permanent 16V. Do not use the "red" output of the light transfo (it it has one), and NEVER connect "red" from light transfomer to MS2 "red" wire. Before using this schema, I'd like other forum members to confirm If I'm right or not. I repeat, I don't have experience of such an arrangement. The schema provided is done based on my current knowledge and deductions. Hope that helps... Cheers Fabrice Thank you Fabrice I will try to apply your instructions. I think had read somewhere that it isn't correct to mix up two different ways of power feeding. And thus I was affraid to make an analogue wiring for my sempahore and in the same time to have my loco to run in digital mode with mobile station 2. Now I will connect the wires in analogue mode and see what will happening. I will let you know, if you wish. Regards Nasargy Merci beaucoup pour vos conseils. Je vous suis reconnaissant Salutations
		Experience is like a comb. You get it when you are already bald


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nasargy		#6 Posted : 29 September 2015 16:20:18(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 19/03/2009(UTC) Posts: 12 Location: Paralia Distomou , Distomo		Originally Posted by: nasargy Originally Posted by: French_Fabrice Hi Nasargy, I may be wrong, but I think you're seriously mixing things Preamble: I don't have personally an experience of mixing a loco digital command with analog command of turnouts/signals, nor an experience of a MS2. But I have a good understanding of digital system since more than 20 years (today with a CS2 and full computer driven layout), and the same experience about pure analog layout. I repeat, I may be wrong, and in such a case other forum members are welcome to correct my mistakes, but until so far, let's suppose I'm right... 1) I don't understand the purpose of the 5211 decoder, if you want to drive the signal with circuit tracks. The Viessmann 5211 is the equivalent of the old marklin K83 decoder (ref 6083). The purpose of such a decoder is to drive turnouts or legacy signals (the Viessmann 4500 semaphore belongs to this category) from a numeric interface (i.e. either from the Keyboard interface of a CS2/MS2 or a computer), and not an analog one. In other words, the 5211 has a base address you set with dip-switches inside. This base address (A) allows to drive up to four turnouts/signals starting at address A up to address A+3. So, if you set the base address of the 5211 to 1 and plug the 3 command wires of the signal (yellow, blue/red and blue/green) to group 1 of 5211, then you are able to change the semaphore position using the MS2 Keyboard interface, on address 1. 2) I'm afraid you cannot connect the signal for digital command thru the MS2, AND thru the circuit tracks at the same time, except using a CS2 (with a S88 interface) and a S88 decoder connected to the circuit tracks plugs and linked to the CS2 S88 interface. In the later case, both command thru the 5211 AND the circuit tracks is possible. I've drawn a schema of how to connect the MS2, and the 4500 to an analog transformer and the circuit tracks. A few explanations: - Circuit tracks are located at both ends (it's an example). When the slider of the loco passes over the rocker of circuit track #1 (right hand-side), from right to left, it triggers the green command of the signal; When the loco passes over the rocker of circuit track #2, it triggers the red command of the signal. This example is not very representative of a useful automation, but it's only an example. Read the doc (or download it from Marklin web site) of the 24194 circuit track, the example shown is more useful. - The light transformer has a L plug (for light). This output has a permanent 16V. Do not use the "red" output of the light transfo (it it has one), and NEVER connect "red" from light transfomer to MS2 "red" wire. Before using this schema, I'd like other forum members to confirm If I'm right or not. I repeat, I don't have experience of such an arrangement. The schema provided is done based on my current knowledge and deductions. Hope that helps... Cheers Fabrice Thank you Fabrice I will try to apply your instructions. I think had read somewhere that it isn't correct to mix up two different ways of power feeding. And thus I was affraid to make an analogue wiring for my sempahore and in the same time to have my loco to run in digital mode with mobile station 2. Now I will connect the wires in analogue mode and see what will happening. I will let you know, if you wish. Regards Nasargy Merci beaucoup pour vos conseils. Je vous suis reconnaissant Salutations Hi Fabrice Following your instructions I've succeed. Thank you very much. Now I will try to connect the distant signal 4509 as to make it work when the 4500 block signal works, by the mean of the circuit tracks. Any suggestions? Thanks again.
		Experience is like a comb. You get it when you are already bald


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French_Fabrice		#7 Posted : 29 September 2015 19:51:05(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 16/05/2011(UTC) Posts: 1,476 Location: Lyon, France		Hi Nasargy, To add the distant signal, it is very easy. The aspect of the distant signal is the same as main signal, and the wiring of distant is exactly the same as main. Thus: -plug blue/red of distant signal in blue/red of main signal -plug blue/green of distant signal in blue/green of main signal -plug both yellow wires of distant signal to "L" distribution plate -plug brown with diode of distant signal to "0" distribution plate About the 2 red wires of the distant signal, it's up to you to decide if you need an additional insulated section near the distant signal, and before the main signal. In my opinion it's not useful, because a distant signal is a warning signal, and not an imperative signal (as the main is). In such a case, the 2 red wires are not connected. If you choose the opposite, then the 2 red wires of the distant signal are wired the same as the main signal on the insulated section near the distant signal. Cheers Fabrice


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nasargy		#8 Posted : 01 October 2015 09:41:58(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 19/03/2009(UTC) Posts: 12 Location: Paralia Distomou , Distomo		Thank you Fabrice I will try to apply your instructions. I think had read somewhere that it isn't correct to mix up two different ways of power feeding. And thus I was affraid to make an analogue wiring for my sempahore and in the same time to have my loco to run in digital mode with mobile station 2. Now I will connect the wires in analogue mode and see what will happening. I will let you know, if you wish. Regards Nasargy Merci beaucoup pour vos conseils. Je vous suis reconnaissant Salutations Hi Fabrice Following your instructions I've succeed. Thank you very much. Now I will try to connect the distant signal 4509 as to make it work when the 4500 block signal works, by the mean of the circuit tracks. Any suggestions? Thanks again.
		Experience is like a comb. You get it when you are already bald


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nasargy		#9 Posted : 01 October 2015 09:44:09(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 19/03/2009(UTC) Posts: 12 Location: Paralia Distomou , Distomo		Originally Posted by: French_Fabrice Hi Nasargy, To add the distant signal, it is very easy. The aspect of the distant signal is the same as main signal, and the wiring of distant is exactly the same as main. Thus: -plug blue/red of distant signal in blue/red of main signal -plug blue/green of distant signal in blue/green of main signal -plug both yellow wires of distant signal to "L" distribution plate -plug brown with diode of distant signal to "0" distribution plate About the 2 red wires of the distant signal, it's up to you to decide if you need an additional insulated section near the distant signal, and before the main signal. In my opinion it's not useful, because a distant signal is a warning signal, and not an imperative signal (as the main is). In such a case, the 2 red wires are not connected. If you choose the opposite, then the 2 red wires of the distant signal are wired the same as the main signal on the insulated section near the distant signal. Cheers Fabrice Hello Fabrice. Thanks again for your advise and help. It is working real nice. Regards Merci infiniment. A une prochaine fois peut etre!
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Goofy		#10 Posted : 26 March 2016 09:05:15(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC) Posts: 9,019		Originally Posted by: French_Fabrice I've drawn a schema of how to connect the MS2, and the 4500 to an analog transformer and the circuit tracks. Cheers Fabrice This diagram shows how to use two trains automatic train control. If you use only one train set,then it´s waste by isolate track area.
		H0 DCC = Digital Command Control


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