Welcome to the forum   
Welcome Guest! To enable all features please Login or Register.

Notification

Icon
Error

Share
Options
View
Go to last post in this topic Go to first unread post in this topic
Offline Soest  
#1 Posted : 05 January 2012 22:25:10(UTC)
Soest


Joined: 05/09/2009(UTC)
Posts: 201
Location: Ottawa, Ontario
I have one of these small, dark blue transformers that seems to date back to the mid 50's. It is 220 volts and I can operate it through an adaptor. However the speed control is erratic and there is no reverse function. It is secured on the bottom by tabs and rivets. I assume the speed control knob must also come off before the housing can be removed? Any experience here? Thanks.
Why do grown men play with trains?
Their wives insist they are insane
But their dreams they won't let down the drain
'Cause there ain't no thing so hard to lose as those disappearing railway blues.
Offline Western Pacific  
#2 Posted : 05 January 2012 22:39:53(UTC)
Western Pacific

Sweden   
Joined: 19/09/2009(UTC)
Posts: 841
Location: Lidingö, Sweden
I assume it is a transformer similar to that shown on the picture of this link.

If your is intact, then there is a small piece of red plastic in the centre of the turning knob and once that is removed then you'll find a screw to remove the knob.

The link leads to an Internet page and even if it is in German, I believe the picture are helpful.
Offline river6109  
#3 Posted : 06 January 2012 01:03:35(UTC)
river6109

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 14,614
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
Michael,

Giving advice on electrical equipment such as main voltage can result in a disaster.
No electrician will give you advise over the phone or over the interent how to fix a transformer that has a main input voltage.

I'm somewhat surprised, we have restrictions about politics, religion and foul language but we don't have guidelines regarding help or request for electrical equipment such as main power transformers.

My advice is, don't touch it and get a new one.
although I have dismantled it previously and replaced cords, the inside reveals, the knob moves over a series of wires sideways and over years of operation these wires could be worn down.

by the time you've figured it all out it is noth worth it, value and safety wise.


You know the saying: curiosity killed the cat.

John

Edited by user 06 January 2012 15:16:44(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

https://www.youtube.com/river6109
https://www.youtube.com/6109river
5 years in Destruction mode
50 years in Repairing mode
Offline cookee_nz  
#4 Posted : 06 January 2012 05:09:30(UTC)
cookee_nz

New Zealand   
Joined: 31/12/2010(UTC)
Posts: 3,946
Location: Paremata, Wellington
Originally Posted by: river6109 Go to Quoted Post
Soest,

Giving advice on electrical equipment such as main voltage can result in a disaster.
No electrician will give you advise over the phone or over the interent how to fix a transformer that has a main input voltage.

I'm somewhat surprised, we have restrictions about politics, religion and foul language but we don't have guidelines regarding help or request for electrical equipment such as main power transformers.

My advice is, don't touch it and get a new one.
although I have dismantled it previously and replaced cords, the inside reveals, the knob moves over a series of wires sideways and over years of operation these wires could be worn down.

by the time you've figured it all out it is noth worth it, value and safety wise.


You know the saying: curiosity killed the cat.

John



With John's very sound and wise advice in mind, I'll still try to answer your question.

This is probably your Trafo shown below. The Red knob on these will come off with the top cover, it can only be removed once the cover is off but the knob itself probably no need to remove.

There is a reason for the small silver rivets which is to dissuade the curious. I offer this advice only on the assumption that you are either experienced in electrical work, or will give the information to an experienced appliance service person or electrician to undertake for you - SERIOUSLY!!

Also be aware that the 278a Controller is now very old. ie most likely at LEAST c. 50+ years old so not only have you the issue with the speed control but also the mains flex is very likely deteriorated (internal insulation perished) and should also be replaced.

Couple that with it's relatively low power output and you can quickly see that this is the perfect time to consider replacement and perhaps (if the mains flex is ok) relegate this to being a lighting transformer.

But at the end of the day this forum is an information resource and having serviced a number of these myself I provide the following detail for its information value only;

And with that disclaimer out the way we shall proceed....

The rivets will need to be removed, either cut off or pulled through the holes with small side-cutters. The tabs which protrude through the base mnay be twisted also to secure the top and base together and will need to be gently straightened with flat ('duck-bill') pliers.

Then the top cover can be gently and slowly pried off the base - be careful as the wire for the speed control wiper will remain attached and it's only a short section of wire.

If you are lucky, the wiper may only have lost its pressure against the transformer windings in which case only a gentle bit of adjustment (bending), or in IBM-Speak, 'forming' to give additional pressure.

Failing that, the copper windings may have worn too far for reliable contact in which case repair is simply not an option. It would need re-winding of the core. These are done by machine under specific tension etc etc and impractical to even attempt repair and brings us right back to the 'time to replace it' option.

Hope this helps, and please, once again take this advice seriously - if you don't know what you are doing with main voltage, don't even try. It's just not worth the risk.

Kind regards

Steve
Melbourne
cookee_nz attached the following image(s):
278a-Trafo.jpg
Cookee
Wellington
NZ image
Offline Hoover007  
#5 Posted : 06 January 2012 12:30:29(UTC)
Hoover007


Joined: 07/03/2010(UTC)
Posts: 60
Location: Phuket, Thailand
Originally Posted by: Soest Go to Quoted Post
I have one of these small, dark blue transformers that seems to date back to the mid 50's. It is 220 volts and I can operate it through an adaptor. However the speed control is erratic and there is no reverse function. It is secured on the bottom by tabs and rivets. I assume the speed control knob must also come off before the housing can be removed? Any experience here? Thanks.


I had the same transformer except in my case when plugged in it blew the main breakers to the house!! Unless you know what you are doing don't mess with it. Great way to do some serious damage to your layout. I managed to find a electrical handyman and he rewired the transformer. Normally he would not do such a job but he got a kick out of seeing something so old that he took on the job. Works like new but it cost me!!! Scared
Offline BillJ  
#6 Posted : 06 January 2012 15:03:53(UTC)
BillJ


Joined: 08/06/2009(UTC)
Posts: 75
Location: White Mountains, NH
Two quick additions to Steve's excellent advice.

In addition to checking the tension on the sweeper arm, check the wire connecting the dial sweeper to the lug at the back of the transformer. At the dial sweeper end, the wire may be broken or cracked. Even if you cannot see a break, it may have deteriorated within the casing from 50 years of turning. If you are experienced with soldering, de-solder the wire from the sweeper, snip off the end where it is constantly bending, solder on and shrinkwrap a piece of new wire at the end, and solder it to the sweeper arm.

A second point is that when you are through, solidly re-seal the transformer. Replace rivets with rivets, and return tabs to firmly closed position. (In the white transformers install new plugs , wooden dowels sanded down to fit being one possibility.) Definitely re-seal the box, no duct tape!

These things are sealed for a reason, and loose reattachment is an invitation to danger.

I respect the warnings -- indeed incompetent hands and transformers could spell disaster -- but frankly do not see the risk in bending the sweeper to increase tension, or fixing a broken sweeper wire, and then fully resealing the box. Unlikely that I would attempt anything beyond that, however.

Bill
Offline river6109  
#7 Posted : 06 January 2012 15:35:09(UTC)
river6109

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 14,614
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
Originally Posted by: BillJ Go to Quoted Post
Two quick additions to Steve's excellent advice.

In addition to checking the tension on the sweeper arm, check the wire connecting the dial sweeper to the lug at the back of the transformer. At the dial sweeper end, the wire may be broken or cracked. Even if you cannot see a break, it may have deteriorated within the casing from 50 years of turning. If you are experienced with soldering, de-solder the wire from the sweeper, snip off the end where it is constantly bending, solder on and shrinkwrap a piece of new wire at the end, and solder it to the sweeper arm.

A second point is that when you are through, solidly re-seal the transformer. Replace rivets with rivets, and return tabs to firmly closed position. (In the white transformers install new plugs , wooden dowels sanded down to fit being one possibility.) Definitely re-seal the box, no duct tape!

These things are sealed for a reason, and loose reattachment is an invitation to danger.

I respect the warnings -- indeed incompetent hands and transformers could spell disaster -- but frankly do not see the risk in bending the sweeper to increase tension, or fixing a broken sweeper wire, and then fully resealing the box. Unlikely that I would attempt anything beyond that, however.

Bill


Bill you don't have to be incompetent, there have been fatalities from professional electrician, so the risk is very high because of its age and any electrician or authority would tell you, your transformer is illegal to use.

the description you give is correct but there is more to the eye what you can actually see or should look out for.

Your quote being 50 years old is a reasonable time frame, the more important factor is how many hours of use it has done and the storing conditions it has experienced over the years.

In England for instance, any old electrical equipment, has to be , by law, decommissioned by removing the powerplug, this is why actioneers in England have a duty to remove the powerplug before an auction takes place, regardless how new the article looks.

We are a free and happy forum but this doesn't exclude us from common laws and common sense.

One of the most common fatalities occur from, house owners who do not have a residual current circuit breaker installed and this is one of the most essential equipment everybody needs.

John
https://www.youtube.com/river6109
https://www.youtube.com/6109river
5 years in Destruction mode
50 years in Repairing mode
Offline Soest  
#8 Posted : 06 January 2012 23:51:13(UTC)
Soest


Joined: 05/09/2009(UTC)
Posts: 201
Location: Ottawa, Ontario
Wow, this sounds like it's more dangerous than bungee jumping. I purchased the transformer because it has a nice old plain coloured box and I wanted it for my vintage layout. Perhaps I should relegate it to being a prop with occasional use. Thanks everyone for their advice and warnings.

Mike
Why do grown men play with trains?
Their wives insist they are insane
But their dreams they won't let down the drain
'Cause there ain't no thing so hard to lose as those disappearing railway blues.
Offline GG1 Fan  
#9 Posted : 07 January 2012 00:44:08(UTC)
GG1 Fan


Joined: 30/11/2010(UTC)
Posts: 725
Location: Stamford, CT USA
The Brits declare 50 year old electrical equipment to be illegal? Wow, I did not know that.

Hum, I have two of the 'supr' transformers. I wonder if I should/can just sell them?? They looks like they would be lots of fun, they were in the mid 1980's when they were last pluged in.

I don't think they are illegal to use in the USA, but I could be wrong.


Wondering,
Paul
Offline BillJ  
#10 Posted : 07 January 2012 01:13:58(UTC)
BillJ


Joined: 08/06/2009(UTC)
Posts: 75
Location: White Mountains, NH
Your choice.

There are some strong views on the subject of old transformers, obviously, and in this thread loudly shouted. I keep waiting for factual information about actual problems that have occurred.

However, be assured that there are many train layouts running with these beautiful old transformers. Mine included.

I stand by my comments.

Good luck!

Bill
Offline river6109  
#11 Posted : 07 January 2012 03:28:08(UTC)
river6109

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 14,614
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
Originally Posted by: BillJ Go to Quoted Post
Your choice.

There are some strong views on the subject of old transformers, obviously, and in this thread loudly shouted. I keep waiting for factual information about actual problems that have occurred.

However, be assured that there are many train layouts running with these beautiful old transformers. Mine included.

I stand by my comments.

Good luck!

Bill


Bill,

there is a difference of using transformers in your own home and no one can tell you shouldn't and it is your own responsiblity what ever the outcome may be or in what condition your transformer is
To receive actual information, the person most probably can't tell the story.

My reply was directed and a warning bell has been activated for people who have problems with transformers, and in your eyes they are beautiful old transformers, no one is denying this or questions your judgement but giving advice on some outdated unsave, problematic equipment, I make the effort by warning people of the possible consequences.
We haven't seen the transformer, we don't know the condition of the transformer and we don't know what's inside the transformer giving the trouble, it has a metal housing and as you know today's housing are all made of plastic, proper earthing, again for safety reasons.

We hear many times, it will never happen to me and this alone has proven wrong on many occasions.

My motto is: be save than sorry, that's all and I'm glad your transformers and many others will be cherished for years to come, that is if you are still alive to tell the story.

John

P.S.

We don't give advice on marital problems because it can lead to sparks flying everywhere and you may be blamed for the breakup, same with transformersBigGrin

https://www.youtube.com/river6109
https://www.youtube.com/6109river
5 years in Destruction mode
50 years in Repairing mode
Offline cookee_nz  
#12 Posted : 07 January 2012 07:34:53(UTC)
cookee_nz

New Zealand   
Joined: 31/12/2010(UTC)
Posts: 3,946
Location: Paremata, Wellington
This debate raised a further valid point that has been made here which I should have addressed, and that is the legality of doing your own repairs.

Each country is different. New Zealand for example relaxed electrical regulations allowing some simple repairs to be undertaken by home handymen, whereas previously any electrical work was limited pretty much to being able to replace the 3-pin plug on a flex, and replacing a blown fuse in the switchboard and that was about it.

When they relaxed the regulations it was broadened so that homeowners could do some of their own domestic wiring etc, and there was the expected hue and cry from the electrical industry and unions warning of dire consequences, fatalities, and so on. The reality was that this did not happen, sure there have still been accidents, but there are no shortage of registered electricians and apprentices who have been injured or worse so having a qualification doesn't immunise you, it just improves the odds that any electrical work will be done in a professional manner.

Homeowners doing their own wiring are still required to have the work checked and certified before the actual connection, and they are not allowed to do any electrical work for another person for payment.

In NZ I held an Electrical Service Technician registration and this mainly covered Appliances which included Office Equipment (my requirement) and also white goods, and pretty much anything else where power is supplied by a flexible cord. It does not include 3-phase equipment and I am not authorised to work on fixed-wiring for payment. But having the certification meant I could also do the testing, certifying and repair of Transformers for the MMRC and this was very convenient for our "Goods for Sale" operation.

The point needs to be made that if your country prohibits any non-certified person from undertaking their own repairs to mains-powered equipment, and someone on this forum gave advise on how to do something which ultimately led to a death, well perhaps manslaughter charges might not quite arise but it would still be most regrettable for all concerned.

In my experience, most people who are not technically or electrically-minded will naturally shy away from attempting any sort of work where there may be a risk, and this is as it should be. We have fear and caution as a strong human condition for good cause. "Fools rush in" and all that.

SO - the assistance or advice given here while given in good faith, is also provided on the clear understanding that not only is the person using it confident in their abilities, but is also legally free to undertake this work in their own country.

Phew, hopefully that has covered things off better.

Edited by user 07 January 2012 23:52:55(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Cookee
Wellington
NZ image
Offline BillJ  
#13 Posted : 07 January 2012 15:57:44(UTC)
BillJ


Joined: 08/06/2009(UTC)
Posts: 75
Location: White Mountains, NH
John and Cookee, thanks for the follow up., well done by both of you.

I generally agree with each of you. I do not do wiring at home because that has me playing with (in our case) 120v power, which kills. Nor do I fix appliances or power tools.

Ironically, I first got up the courage to touch these things (again, I don't do home electrical repairs) when a second white transformer stopped working. Not a blue one, a new white one. Expensive little things. So I thought, "let's see how this works before I throw it out". And found discussion on the forum on how to open it. Then I talked with a train nut who also is a professor of electrical engineering to learn how transformers work, and what to look for. I never expected to do any repairs.

What I found stunned me. The very small gauge wire (much smaller than we use in layouts) used to connect the sweeper to the lug had broken in the same place in both. Clearly an undersized wire not up to the repeated bending it gets from turning the dial. So I soldered, and resealed the box, and it worked fine. Makes me wonder how many new transformers have failed because of a little piece of an undersized wire. Note that this is not fixing a defective transformer, but the wire that carries the same (transformed) current we all work with under our tables. I would toss the transformer if the problem is more major than this one wire.

I TOTALLY agree on the need for extreme caution, and that the owner does it in his own home on his own equipment, if it is legal in his country, and takes the risk, if any.

Let's save the discussion relating to blue boxes, even though that triggered this thread, since the issue is not that they have unique reasons to open or not open, but whether they are inherently unsafe. There clearly are two points of view on this, and it would greatly help to have evidence as to whether there have been specific instances of those concerns having been realized. I understand the concerns, but then, every time I buy something there is a two page list of safety issues with it, written by company lawyers. So I continue to use them until I see convincing evidence.

I expect we won't agree (lol) but still am convinced that the limited repair as described, done cautiously and solidly resealing the transformer, is safe. I personally would do it again. Whether others do is up to them. With hindsight, I do agree with both of you that stronger cautionary language on my part was needed.

Time to head to the layout expansion and let this rest!

Bill



Offline Soest  
#14 Posted : 09 January 2012 05:32:25(UTC)
Soest


Joined: 05/09/2009(UTC)
Posts: 201
Location: Ottawa, Ontario
Thanks very much to all for taking the time to explain so thoroughly the likely causes of my transformer malfunctions as well as the perils of working on it myself. Even if I let sleeping dogs lie, as I likely will, I have some appreciation of how these devices function, which I find quite interesting. I did wire the basement in my house with the inspection of our hydro authority. If I do choose at some point to open up the old transformer I will take it to a qualified individual for their assessment.

Cheers,

Mike
Why do grown men play with trains?
Their wives insist they are insane
But their dreams they won't let down the drain
'Cause there ain't no thing so hard to lose as those disappearing railway blues.
Offline river6109  
#15 Posted : 09 January 2012 09:33:14(UTC)
river6109

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 14,614
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
Originally Posted by: Soest Go to Quoted Post
Thanks very much to all for taking the time to explain so thoroughly the likely causes of my transformer malfunctions as well as the perils of working on it myself. Even if I let sleeping dogs lie, as I likely will, I have some appreciation of how these devices function, which I find quite interesting. I did wire the basement in my house with the inspection of our hydro authority. If I do choose at some point to open up the old transformer I will take it to a qualified individual for their assessment.

Cheers,

Mike


you are not wasting your toime doing this you are saving your life from being wastedBigGrin

Nice talking to you

John
https://www.youtube.com/river6109
https://www.youtube.com/6109river
5 years in Destruction mode
50 years in Repairing mode
Offline morsing  
#16 Posted : 25 August 2015 19:56:31(UTC)
morsing

United Kingdom   
Joined: 16/08/2014(UTC)
Posts: 586
Location: Aylesbury, Buckinghamshire
Hi,

Does anyone know if the 6611 lighting transformer is ok, or if I buy one, should I take it apart and check?

Thanks
-----
Modelling west Denmark era IV - possibly with some out-of-place elements!
Marklin C-track + CS3+
12m2 layout to be controlled by RocRail
Offline mike c  
#17 Posted : 26 August 2015 06:57:17(UTC)
mike c

Canada   
Joined: 28/11/2007(UTC)
Posts: 7,865
Location: Montreal, QC
Originally Posted by: Soest Go to Quoted Post
I have one of these small, dark blue transformers that seems to date back to the mid 50's. It is 220 volts and I can operate it through an adaptor. However the speed control is erratic and there is no reverse function. It is secured on the bottom by tabs and rivets. I assume the speed control knob must also come off before the housing can be removed? Any experience here? Thanks.


The reverse function is activated by pressing down on the knob. I do not recommend restoring this transformer as an accident could result in a 240V shock.
I would recommend that you check with Eurorailhobbies, Westend Trains, AJCKids or other dealer to see if they have a 6647 (120V) for sale. Many dealers have these transformers taken from Start Sets at very reasonable prices.

Regards

Mike C
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by mike c
Offline mike c  
#18 Posted : 26 August 2015 07:03:16(UTC)
mike c

Canada   
Joined: 28/11/2007(UTC)
Posts: 7,865
Location: Montreal, QC
Originally Posted by: morsing Go to Quoted Post
Hi,

Does anyone know if the 6611 lighting transformer is ok, or if I buy one, should I take it apart and check?

Thanks


The 6611 was a model from the late 1970s/early 1980s and should be better than the 1960s and early 1970s models. As such, it might not deteriorate as much as one of the older models, but you also have to take into account that the construction may not quite be as long lasting as earlier models, meaning that it could age in other ways than what has been discussed for the older ones.

You can probably find a 6002 220V transformer at a good price by shopping around. There are a number on ebay.de

Regards

Mike C
thanks 2 users liked this useful post by mike c
Users browsing this topic
Forum Jump  
You cannot post new topics in this forum.
You cannot reply to topics in this forum.
You cannot delete your posts in this forum.
You cannot edit your posts in this forum.
You cannot create polls in this forum.
You cannot vote in polls in this forum.

| Powered by YAF.NET | YAF.NET © 2003-2024, Yet Another Forum.NET
This page was generated in 1.189 seconds.