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Offline Moritz-BR365  
#1 Posted : 07 July 2015 09:19:23(UTC)
Moritz-BR365

Germany   
Joined: 02/04/2013(UTC)
Posts: 682
This is the new V100 Sound for the Doehler&Haass SD21A-4 sound decoder. Sorry for that I had no V100 available. That's why I plugged the decoder in my Märklin 185 Hobby loco with standard Hobby speaker system:



And here a second sound sample, recorded with an external Sony ECM-929LT microfon:



This is the sound and decoder, which is used by the new Brawa DB V100 loco models.

Edited by user 07 July 2015 22:02:20(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

thanks 3 users liked this useful post by Moritz-BR365
Offline biedmatt  
#2 Posted : 07 July 2015 12:20:55(UTC)
biedmatt

United States   
Joined: 09/04/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,343
Location: Southwest Ohio
Brawa is not going to use an ESU decoder on the V100?
Matt
Era 3
DB lokos, coaches and freight cars from across Europe
But I do have the obligatory (six) SBB Krocs
ECoS 50200, all FX and MFX decoders replaced with ESU V4s, operated in DCC-RailCom+ with ABC brake control.
With the exception of the passenger wagens with Marklin current conducting couplers, all close couplers have been replaced with Roco 40397.
Offline Moritz-BR365  
#3 Posted : 07 July 2015 12:30:04(UTC)
Moritz-BR365

Germany   
Joined: 02/04/2013(UTC)
Posts: 682
Originally Posted by: biedmatt Go to Quoted Post
Brawa is not going to use an ESU decoder on the V100?


No, not for the sound version. Only for digital without sound (LokPilot)!
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by Moritz-BR365
Offline biedmatt  
#4 Posted : 07 July 2015 12:57:16(UTC)
biedmatt

United States   
Joined: 09/04/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,343
Location: Southwest Ohio
Does anyone know if the D & H decoders support RailCom+ and Lenz assymmetric AC ABC? The D & H website is Germany only.

I could justify the cost of a Brawa loko because I did not have to replace the decoder like I do with M's lokos. This may be a deal breaker and I might cancel my pre-order for the AC model with telex and a motor on the cooling fan. Could be a cheap year, all I will buy from M this year is 5 wagens.
Matt
Era 3
DB lokos, coaches and freight cars from across Europe
But I do have the obligatory (six) SBB Krocs
ECoS 50200, all FX and MFX decoders replaced with ESU V4s, operated in DCC-RailCom+ with ABC brake control.
With the exception of the passenger wagens with Marklin current conducting couplers, all close couplers have been replaced with Roco 40397.
Offline Moritz-BR365  
#5 Posted : 07 July 2015 13:18:21(UTC)
Moritz-BR365

Germany   
Joined: 02/04/2013(UTC)
Posts: 682
Originally Posted by: biedmatt Go to Quoted Post
Does anyone know if the D & H decoders support RailCom+ and Lenz assymmetric AC ABC? The D & H website is Germany only.

Hello,
Quote:
Der Fahrzeugsounddecoder SD21A unterstützt das Bremsen mit asymmetrischer Digitalspannung (vier Dioden in Serie und eine Diode antiparallel), die Langsamfahrt (mit geeigneten Bremsmodulen) und die bidirektionale Kommunikation (Lokadressrückmeldung im DCC-Betrieb, RailCom®).


=>
- assymetric brake modul YES
- RailCom YES
- RailCom Plus probably NO

thanks 1 user liked this useful post by Moritz-BR365
Offline biedmatt  
#6 Posted : 07 July 2015 13:32:30(UTC)
biedmatt

United States   
Joined: 09/04/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,343
Location: Southwest Ohio
Asymmetric ABC and two way communication (RailCom) were deal breakers. RailCom+ (automatic registration), not so much. It also supports the Lenz BM2 slow speed module, very nice! I guess my order is still alive. Thank you Moritz for the info.

Looking forward to this: http://www.modellbahnsho...gb-h-0/produktvideo.html

Lenz BM2 slow approach/stop module: http://www.lenzusa.com/manuals/modules/bm2

Edited by user 08 July 2015 13:54:44(UTC)  | Reason: added link

Matt
Era 3
DB lokos, coaches and freight cars from across Europe
But I do have the obligatory (six) SBB Krocs
ECoS 50200, all FX and MFX decoders replaced with ESU V4s, operated in DCC-RailCom+ with ABC brake control.
With the exception of the passenger wagens with Marklin current conducting couplers, all close couplers have been replaced with Roco 40397.
Offline biedmatt  
#7 Posted : 07 July 2015 14:08:58(UTC)
biedmatt

United States   
Joined: 09/04/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,343
Location: Southwest Ohio
This has got me thinking. Other than the ability to "play trains" with MFX+, operationally, MFX is the same as it was ten years ago. If M would only update the format and introduce features DCC offers, they could probably make some good money with replacement decoders from those folks who must have M in everything they do and want the latest technology. As MFX stands now, there is no reason to update an MFX decoder. Their "our way or the highway" attitude has again cost them the ability to make more money.
Matt
Era 3
DB lokos, coaches and freight cars from across Europe
But I do have the obligatory (six) SBB Krocs
ECoS 50200, all FX and MFX decoders replaced with ESU V4s, operated in DCC-RailCom+ with ABC brake control.
With the exception of the passenger wagens with Marklin current conducting couplers, all close couplers have been replaced with Roco 40397.
Offline Moritz-BR365  
#8 Posted : 07 July 2015 22:01:49(UTC)
Moritz-BR365

Germany   
Joined: 02/04/2013(UTC)
Posts: 682
And here a second sound sample, recorded with an external Sony ECM-929LT microfon:


thanks 2 users liked this useful post by Moritz-BR365
Offline kiwiAlan  
#9 Posted : 08 July 2015 17:47:51(UTC)
kiwiAlan

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 8,067
Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
Originally Posted by: biedmatt Go to Quoted Post
This has got me thinking. Other than the ability to "play trains" with MFX+, operationally, MFX is the same as it was ten years ago. If M would only update the format and introduce features DCC offers, ...


Such as ???
Offline ronxp  
#10 Posted : 08 July 2015 18:52:01(UTC)
ronxp


Joined: 24/02/2009(UTC)
Posts: 4
Location: ,
The sound is verry good.
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Offline biedmatt  
#11 Posted : 08 July 2015 22:30:41(UTC)
biedmatt

United States   
Joined: 09/04/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,343
Location: Southwest Ohio
Originally Posted by: kiwiAlan Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: biedmatt Go to Quoted Post
This has got me thinking. Other than the ability to "play trains" with MFX+, operationally, MFX is the same as it was ten years ago. If M would only update the format and introduce features DCC offers, ...


Such as ???


MFX uses DC as the signal to initate automatic braking. So you need to switch a different power source than the one generated by your controller into a section of track for automatic braking. This will require a double pole double throw relay and if you do not wire that relay correctly, you could back feed DC voltage into your controller, likely killing it. You know, that advice we all have read and heard: "Power your track through a booster, so if something gets wired wrong, you controller won't get fried, just the (cheaper) booster". When that MFX loko is on DC to cause the braking, you loose all digital control of the loko until you give it a green light. At which point it has already started to accelerate from the signal.

With asymmetric AC digital, the decoder recognizes the "imbalance" in the AC signal and will initiate automatic braking. This simply requires five or six diodes in a matrix. Auto braking is turned off by the closure of the signal contacts, shunting the diode matrix. So you just add the diode matrix across the switch in any track signal and you have implemented automatic braking. Since the signal is still sourced from your controller and not a plain DC voltage, you still have full control of the loko and all it's functions while it is stopped at that signal. Want to sound that horn before you pull away from the signal, or play that boarding message, or play that closing door sound? (I hope the doors close or the boarding announcement is given before the loko is shown a green (Hp 1) proceed signal) You can. With MFX, you can not. Now these are simple play functions, perhaps unimportant to some users, fair enough. But, do you want to perform shunting functions at a station under a red (Hp 0) signal, just like the prototype? Ie: a loko swap at a station so that F-zug has a fresh loko to continue that fast train service instead of making the passengers wait in a siding while the loko is serviced with coal and water. You can, just press the shunting function button on the loko and since there is a digital signal there and not simple DC, you have full control of the loko under red. The shunting function in the DCC decoder will override the active ABC and let you operate it under red just like the real lokos.

The decoder also has a CV that lets you define the stopping distance. No matter how fast or slow the loko is running, it will always stop in the same distance right in front of your signal. Both directions actually, there are CVs for forward and reverse stopping distance. You just need to have consistent brake zones at all signals and the loko will nail the stop every time at every signal. With Lenz's BM2 module, you can implement automatic slow speed (prototype 40 kph) for a yellow (Hp 2) signal and there is a CV with which to set the reduced speed. With the BM2, you can also stop that control car in push/pull service right in front of the signal, even if the loko is not in the braking zone. The BM2 creates two zones. The braking zone that will cause the loko to slow and stop in a specified distance, plus a pre-braking zone. If the control car has a slider and draws power from the track, the BM2 will detect it once it enters the braking zone and then it generates an asymmetric AC signal in the pre-brake zone. The loko decoder detects this asymmetric signal and will begin braking the loko even though it is not in the brake zone proper. So you get perfect stops forward and reverse with push/pull service even with the loko at the far end of the train. The only restriction is the pre-brake zone must be at least the length of your longest push/pull train. This way the loko will begin to brake as soon as the control car enters the brake zone. If the pre-brake zone was too short, the loko would continue to run until it enters the pre-brake zone.

MFX is ten years old and hasn't seen an update. A lot has changed in ten years, none of those changes have made it to MFX. It is still the difficult, limited system it was ten years ago.

Sorry, not my fault. I'm just the messenger.

See "main signal Aspects" (sic) signal at far right of the line of signals. http://www.sh1.org/eisenbahn/shhp.htm
Also see fifth picture down http://www.sh1.org/fotos/hf.htm

Edited by user 27 August 2015 13:37:56(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Matt
Era 3
DB lokos, coaches and freight cars from across Europe
But I do have the obligatory (six) SBB Krocs
ECoS 50200, all FX and MFX decoders replaced with ESU V4s, operated in DCC-RailCom+ with ABC brake control.
With the exception of the passenger wagens with Marklin current conducting couplers, all close couplers have been replaced with Roco 40397.
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by biedmatt
Offline Goofy  
#12 Posted : 09 July 2015 17:53:39(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 8,986
Originally Posted by: Moritz-BR365 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: biedmatt Go to Quoted Post
Brawa is not going to use an ESU decoder on the V100?


No, not for the sound version. Only for digital without sound (LokPilot)!


Are you sure?
I did notice an sound decoder for the Brawas V100 in the ESU homepage.
With the picture of the model too!

H0
DCC = Digital Command Control
Offline Moritz-BR365  
#13 Posted : 09 July 2015 18:20:06(UTC)
Moritz-BR365

Germany   
Joined: 02/04/2013(UTC)
Posts: 682
Originally Posted by: Goofy Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Moritz-BR365 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: biedmatt Go to Quoted Post
Brawa is not going to use an ESU decoder on the V100?


No, not for the sound version. Only for digital without sound (LokPilot)!


Are you sure?
I did notice an sound decoder for the Brawas V100 in the ESU homepage.
With the picture of the model too!



It was written in some german railway forums that Brawa initially wanted to use Esu decoder but then, they stopped the cooperation. But Esu already finished the sound project. Therefore Esu sells their Sound project for the Brawa V100, too. But Brawa offers the sound version with the D&H decoder.
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by Moritz-BR365
Offline biedmatt  
#14 Posted : 09 July 2015 19:06:25(UTC)
biedmatt

United States   
Joined: 09/04/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,343
Location: Southwest Ohio
The prices on the D&H sound decoders appear to be a little more than 50% the ESU decoders. I do not know if this is because the pricing was direct from D&H or if this is their normal retail price. They look be be a nice alternate to the ESU decoders. I'll have to see how well it works.
Matt
Era 3
DB lokos, coaches and freight cars from across Europe
But I do have the obligatory (six) SBB Krocs
ECoS 50200, all FX and MFX decoders replaced with ESU V4s, operated in DCC-RailCom+ with ABC brake control.
With the exception of the passenger wagens with Marklin current conducting couplers, all close couplers have been replaced with Roco 40397.
Offline Webmaster  
#15 Posted : 09 July 2015 20:32:52(UTC)
Webmaster


Joined: 25/07/2001(UTC)
Posts: 11,161
The sound is really good, but I have to close my eyes to imagine a V100 since my brain gets confused with the diesel sound from an electric loco... BigGrin
Juhan - "Webmaster", at your service...
He who asks a question is a fool for five minutes. He who does not ask a question remains a fool forever. [Old Chinese Proverb]
Offline Moritz-BR365  
#16 Posted : 09 July 2015 20:42:48(UTC)
Moritz-BR365

Germany   
Joined: 02/04/2013(UTC)
Posts: 682
Originally Posted by: Webmaster Go to Quoted Post
The sound is really good, but I have to close my eyes to imagine a V100 since my brain gets confused with the diesel sound from an electric loco... BigGrin


I'm really so sorry for this! Therefore I startend my first investigations to convert my V80 into an sound loco. The V100 sound will be acceptable for the V80, both used an V12 diesel engine with diesel hydraulic transmission.

When finished, I will take a new demo video.
Offline Moritz-BR365  
#17 Posted : 09 July 2015 21:27:03(UTC)
Moritz-BR365

Germany   
Joined: 02/04/2013(UTC)
Posts: 682
Originally Posted by: Webmaster Go to Quoted Post
The sound is really good, but I have to close my eyes to imagine a V100 since my brain gets confused with the diesel sound from an electric loco... BigGrin


I'm really so sorry for this! Therefore I startend my first investigations to convert my V80 into an sound loco. The V100 sound will be acceptable for the V80, both used an V12 diesel engine with diesel hydraulic transmission.

When finished, I will take a new demo video.
Offline biedmatt  
#18 Posted : 10 July 2015 00:02:36(UTC)
biedmatt

United States   
Joined: 09/04/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,343
Location: Southwest Ohio
I just got a look as ESU's function matrix for their version Brawa V100 decoder program. See link http://www.esu.eu/en/dow...4925d360fc7ec830bc7fec99

I wonder if the D&H decoder offers all the shunting light options ESU had. They also are using a lot of switched or SUSI functions to get all those different light configurations plus separate function buttons for the two telex couplers and the cooling fan. Also interesting their only available download is for an M4 decoder, but when you use an M4 program, my experience is they only list 16 function buttons, MFX's max. I need to download the program and see how many function buttons the program really supports.
Matt
Era 3
DB lokos, coaches and freight cars from across Europe
But I do have the obligatory (six) SBB Krocs
ECoS 50200, all FX and MFX decoders replaced with ESU V4s, operated in DCC-RailCom+ with ABC brake control.
With the exception of the passenger wagens with Marklin current conducting couplers, all close couplers have been replaced with Roco 40397.
Offline biedmatt  
#19 Posted : 10 July 2015 03:56:47(UTC)
biedmatt

United States   
Joined: 09/04/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,343
Location: Southwest Ohio
Whoa. I really had no plans of posting these screen shots since the discussion is the D&H decoder. Then I saw the sophistication of the program ESU created for the Brawa V100, which is a part of this discussion. I thought some here would find it interesting.

The front headlamps are under three function or SUSI outputs. I haven't dug deep enough into the program to see where the actual switch is located. Those three functions are Aux 3, 4 and 5. Conversely, the rear headlamps are under three different functions, Aux 6, 9 and 10. See the top two lines of the first screenshot. So as I suspected, there are a lot of aux outputs (6) to generate the triple headlamps just so the special headlamp arrangements in the shunting functions buttons (F8, 9,10 and 11) will work as needed. In the conditions column for F0 they have added "not F9 not F10". This is how they turn off those white headlamps they do not want lit when shunting mode F9 and F10 are selected. They needed the "and X not Y" equation though because you do need F0 selected before you can select any of the shunting light functions (f8 through F11) see * paragraph 4 below. This "and not" equation is how they turn off the unwanted white headlamps for those two shunting modes. If you did not turn them off with the "and not" equation, then you would just have three white headlamp lit at that end when it is the direction of travel no matter what shunting function you selected.

The taillamps at the rear of the loko, line 5, "Physical output rear lights (1)" are activated when F3 is pressed and not F8 nor F9 nor F10 nor F11. So they go out when any of the four shunting light functions (F8 through F11) are selected. So the taillamps do not automatically light when F0 is activated, you must press F3 to turn on taillamps. They are direction dependent. Note (f) and (r), the direction component in the "conditions" column.

Lines 11, 12 and 13 of the first screenshot are the physical outputs when a shunting mode function button is selected. To get all the possible permutations, they used an aux output for each of the three white lamps at each end (repeat info from paragraph 1) and then build the light formation needed for that country's shunting mode by building it one lamp at a time until all the lamps that are needed to get that formation are activated. * The conditions line for these shunting modes is read "F0 and Fx". So you will not get the shunting function to activate unless you also active F0, the headlamp function button. * Except for the shunting function under F11. Note they use the direction component (f) and (r), but they have not used an "F0 and F11" equation in the "condition" column there. It is simply F11.

They also operate the coupling sound, see "sound" column, when functions F4 or F5 are pressed to operate the telex, aux 7 and aux 8 in the "physical outputs" column. And you get a fan sound when F6 is pressed to active the cooling fan, Aux1(1). I did not do a screen shot of the function output aux1(1), but I did notice the function is speed dependent and the fan will run faster as the speed increases. I did not check to see if the "coupler waltz" feature is activated when the telex couplers are operated, but as this is a feature the ESU V4 decoders support, I would bet it is there.

There is an incredible amount of stuff going on in this program. I have merely scratched the surface. I wonder if the D&H decoder has this level of sophistication? I would guess so since the circuit board for the connections to the physical outputs is probably the same and it's just who's 21MTC decoder is plugged into it. But they do not necessarily have to create all the shunting light functions. They may just offer the simple triple headlamp at both ends. I am sure many of those who write computer code can see and explain much more than I can. I might be able to understand it, but I could never write something so sophisticated. This has been an incredible learning experience that will surely help me with my own decoder programs. I imagine I will reference it frequently for now on.


UserPostedImage

UserPostedImage

For an explanation of how LokProgrammer works, see this: https://www.marklin-user...1-LokProgrammer-software

Oh yeah, It is a program written for an MFX compatible V4M4 decoder, see just under the "help" pull down at the top left of the screenshot. But, it lists more than 16 functions in the "Conditions" column. I have never seen this before in a LokProgrammer file written for an M4 compatible decoder. I know MFX only supports 16 functions, so I guess those at 17 and up, which are not available in MFX, get ignored.

Edited by user 11 July 2015 14:10:39(UTC)  | Reason: I keep discovering more and more!

Matt
Era 3
DB lokos, coaches and freight cars from across Europe
But I do have the obligatory (six) SBB Krocs
ECoS 50200, all FX and MFX decoders replaced with ESU V4s, operated in DCC-RailCom+ with ABC brake control.
With the exception of the passenger wagens with Marklin current conducting couplers, all close couplers have been replaced with Roco 40397.
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by biedmatt
Offline Moritz-BR365  
#20 Posted : 10 July 2015 07:38:54(UTC)
Moritz-BR365

Germany   
Joined: 02/04/2013(UTC)
Posts: 682
Oh yes, the Esu LokSound and LokPilot offer much more complex and very powerfull configuration and programming options then the D&H SD21A-4 does. On the other side, the Doehler&Haass Decoder is still easy to program manually, where the programming of an Esu decoder becomes very hard to understand, when You don't use the Lokprogrammer software and/or the lokprogrammer itself.

I usually use the LokProgrammer software to create the settings and write out the list of changed CV variables with the new values. Then, I can program the Esu decoder with my MS2 manually.

For the D&H decoder there is a programmer and a programmer software available, too. It's not so comfortable like the Esu one but it works well. And finally, the Esu LokSound decoder are much too expensive for me. I have to pay at minimum 30€ more for an Esu LokSound V4 then for the D&H SD21A-4. And AUX3/4 of the D&H decoder are amplified, those of the Esu are not amplified.

Therefore, I think there are good reasons to buy the Esu LokSound but there might be also good reasons to take the Doehler&Haass.
thanks 3 users liked this useful post by Moritz-BR365
Offline biedmatt  
#21 Posted : 29 July 2015 22:48:47(UTC)
biedmatt

United States   
Joined: 09/04/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,343
Location: Southwest Ohio
Modellbahn Shoppe Lippe now shows the AC unit with telex and fan as sold out. They must have received pre-orders for the quantity they feel they will receive.
Matt
Era 3
DB lokos, coaches and freight cars from across Europe
But I do have the obligatory (six) SBB Krocs
ECoS 50200, all FX and MFX decoders replaced with ESU V4s, operated in DCC-RailCom+ with ABC brake control.
With the exception of the passenger wagens with Marklin current conducting couplers, all close couplers have been replaced with Roco 40397.
Offline Goofy  
#22 Posted : 30 July 2015 08:09:16(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 8,986
Originally Posted by: biedmatt Go to Quoted Post
Modellbahn Shoppe Lippe now shows the AC unit with telex and fan as sold out. They must have received pre-orders for the quantity they feel they will receive.


Already sold out...AC model?
Beware Märklin!

Laugh

H0
DCC = Digital Command Control
Offline biedmatt  
#23 Posted : 30 July 2015 14:02:32(UTC)
biedmatt

United States   
Joined: 09/04/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,343
Location: Southwest Ohio
Originally Posted by: Goofy Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: biedmatt Go to Quoted Post
Modellbahn Shoppe Lippe now shows the AC unit with telex and fan as sold out. They must have received pre-orders for the quantity they feel they will receive.


Already sold out...AC model?
Beware Märklin!

Laugh



Apparently only the AC model with Telex and fan. The base AC unit without sound, nor the Telex or fan is currently available and shipping from Brawa.
Matt
Era 3
DB lokos, coaches and freight cars from across Europe
But I do have the obligatory (six) SBB Krocs
ECoS 50200, all FX and MFX decoders replaced with ESU V4s, operated in DCC-RailCom+ with ABC brake control.
With the exception of the passenger wagens with Marklin current conducting couplers, all close couplers have been replaced with Roco 40397.
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