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Offline TrainIride  
#1 Posted : 07 February 2015 11:22:24(UTC)
TrainIride

France   
Joined: 23/10/2010(UTC)
Posts: 1,904
Location: FRANCE
Hi Friends,

Found on the web this incredible picture, that's why I've copied it here.

The German E44 with the French BB10000 on the same tracks, somewhere in France in the early 1950's

I was so happy to find a good reason to run simultaneously two of my favourite models on my layout Wink .

More details on this history will come soon.

And if someone knows more about this, please post !

Best regards

Joël


TrainIride attached the following image(s):
e24422bb10001_640.jpg
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Offline TrainIride  
#2 Posted : 07 February 2015 11:24:36(UTC)
TrainIride

France   
Joined: 23/10/2010(UTC)
Posts: 1,904
Location: FRANCE

So I've tried to reproduce this mood at home....



TrainIride attached the following image(s):
e44bb10000_640.jpg
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Offline H0  
#3 Posted : 07 February 2015 11:59:17(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Hi!
Originally Posted by: TrainIride Go to Quoted Post
The German E44 with the French BB10000 on the same tracks, somewhere in France in the early 1950s
interesting photo.
The loco on the picture is E 244 22, a loco compatible with the SNCF voltage. It is not an E 44.
It is based on the E 44 and became E 44 189 after a conversion in 1965.

On a model layout, an E 44 will do as a substitute for an E 244.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
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Offline TrainIride  
#4 Posted : 07 February 2015 12:29:02(UTC)
TrainIride

France   
Joined: 23/10/2010(UTC)
Posts: 1,904
Location: FRANCE
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
Hi!
Originally Posted by: TrainIride Go to Quoted Post
The German E44 with the French BB10000 on the same tracks, somewhere in France in the early 1950s
interesting photo.
The loco on the picture is E 244 22, a loco compatible with the SNCF voltage. It is not an E 44.
It is based on the E 44 and became E 44 189 after a conversion in 1965.

On a model layout, an E 44 will do as a substitute for an E 244.


Hi Tom You are absolutely right !

In fact E244 was based on E44 Prototype and was used in Germany
on the Höllental railroad to test catenary feeded with 20000v 50Hz Ac current.

French SNCF was interested by these tests because 20kv AC power
was reducing costs of power plants and catenary installation.
Instead of previous common 1500v DC current more easy to drive motors,
but needing bigger overhead copper wires and more power plants along the tracks...

It is interesting to see that AC vs. DC current was also a question for real train companies - same for modellers BigGrin .

So E244-22 was lent to SNCF for tests on a first small 78km AC line in France.
SNCF ordered also to ALSTOM a loco to run on these tracks.
Alstom used parts of the NS1100 prototype to build the "BB10001" equipped with DC motors
but embedding an AC/DC converter...

...


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Offline TrainIride  
#5 Posted : 07 February 2015 12:47:40(UTC)
TrainIride

France   
Joined: 23/10/2010(UTC)
Posts: 1,904
Location: FRANCE
UserPostedImage

The E244 22 prototype was build with parts of the E44 005
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Offline TrainIride  
#6 Posted : 07 February 2015 12:53:58(UTC)
TrainIride

France   
Joined: 23/10/2010(UTC)
Posts: 1,904
Location: FRANCE

UserPostedImage



The BB10001 prototype was at first named BB8051



UserPostedImage

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Offline TrainIride  
#7 Posted : 13 February 2015 15:24:07(UTC)
TrainIride

France   
Joined: 23/10/2010(UTC)
Posts: 1,904
Location: FRANCE

BB10001 has even been painted in blue :

TrainIride attached the following image(s):
bb10001-blue.jpg
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Offline jvuye  
#8 Posted : 13 February 2015 20:09:36(UTC)
jvuye

Belgium   
Joined: 01/03/2008(UTC)
Posts: 2,881
Location: South Western France
Originally Posted by: TrainIride Go to Quoted Post
Hi Friends,

Found on the web this incredible picture, that's why I've copied it here.

The German E44 with the French BB10000 on the same tracks, somewhere in France in the early 1950's

I was so happy to find a good reason to run simultaneously two of my favourite models on my layout Wink .

More details on this history will come soon.

And if someone knows more about this, please post !

Best regards

Joël



Ok,easy enough!
The 244 was in France to test the new 50hz catenary system.
The 244 is a variation of the 144, used on the Hollentalbahn at the time which was one of the few industrial frequency rr in Europe.
Obviously it had to be moved to the test grounds, which explains why it was in tow of a 1500v DC loco.
Hope this helps
Cheers
Jacques
Jacques Vuye aka Dr.Eisenbahn
Once a vandal, learned to be better and had great success!
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Offline mike c  
#9 Posted : 14 February 2015 01:36:10(UTC)
mike c

Canada   
Joined: 28/11/2007(UTC)
Posts: 7,880
Location: Montreal, QC
Originally Posted by: TrainIride Go to Quoted Post

UserPostedImage


Just for information, this locomotive (CC6051) was ordered from BBC/SAAS in the early 1950s and shares a lot in common with a very well known Swiss locomotive series.
Any guesses which Maerklin model I am referring to?

Regards

Mike C
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Offline TrainIride  
#10 Posted : 14 February 2015 10:02:06(UTC)
TrainIride

France   
Joined: 23/10/2010(UTC)
Posts: 1,904
Location: FRANCE
Originally Posted by: mike c Go to Quoted Post


Just for information, this locomotive (CC6051) was ordered from BBC/SAAS in the early 1950s and shares a lot in common with a very well known Swiss locomotive series.
Any guesses which Maerklin model I am referring to?

Regards

Mike C


Maybe the one at right on the pic ? Wink

Best regards
Joël

TrainIride attached the following image(s):
swiss_loco.jpg
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Offline TrainIride  
#11 Posted : 14 February 2015 10:05:45(UTC)
TrainIride

France   
Joined: 23/10/2010(UTC)
Posts: 1,904
Location: FRANCE
Originally Posted by: jvuye Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: TrainIride Go to Quoted Post
Hi Friends,

Found on the web this incredible picture, that's why I've copied it here.

The German E44 with the French BB10000 on the same tracks, somewhere in France in the early 1950's

I was so happy to find a good reason to run simultaneously two of my favourite models on my layout Wink .

More details on this history will come soon.

And if someone knows more about this, please post !

Best regards

Joël



Ok,easy enough!
The 244 was in France to test the new 50hz catenary system.
The 244 is a variation of the 144, used on the Hollentalbahn at the time which was one of the few industrial frequency rr in Europe.
Obviously it had to be moved to the test grounds, which explains why it was in tow of a 1500v DC loco.
Hope this helps
Cheers
Jacques


Hi Jacques,

The BB10001 was not a DC Loco .
It has four DC engines but had an embedded AC/DC converter to run (and only) under AC catenary !

Best regards
Joël





TrainIride attached the following image(s):
bb100001_DCAC.jpg
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Offline H0  
#12 Posted : 14 February 2015 10:08:36(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: jvuye Go to Quoted Post
Obviously it had to be moved to the test grounds, which explains why it was in tow of a 1500v DC loco.
On the photo both locos have one raised pantograph. The E 244 (the E is significant here as the E 244 was for 50 Hz while the 244 of the DR was for 16 2/3 Hz - and an E 144 would have been a DC loco) was an AC loco - so what power is on the catenary if both raised their pantographs?
Maybe there is no power and both locos were just on display?


Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
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Offline TrainIride  
#13 Posted : 14 February 2015 10:14:39(UTC)
TrainIride

France   
Joined: 23/10/2010(UTC)
Posts: 1,904
Location: FRANCE
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: jvuye Go to Quoted Post
Obviously it had to be moved to the test grounds, which explains why it was in tow of a 1500v DC loco.
On the photo both locos have one raised pantograph. The E 244 (the E is significant here as the E 244 was for 50 Hz while the 244 of the DR was for 16 2/3 Hz - and an E 144 would have been a DC loco) was an AC loco - so what power is on the catenary if both raised their pantographs?
Maybe there is no power and both locos were just on display?




Both were powered, at first experiment with 20000v 50Hz
Then, the voltage was raised to 25000v 50Hz

Best regards
Joël

Offline TrainIride  
#14 Posted : 14 February 2015 10:17:46(UTC)
TrainIride

France   
Joined: 23/10/2010(UTC)
Posts: 1,904
Location: FRANCE
Again,

BB8051 renumbered BB10001, was an AC loco !!
Offline TrainIride  
#15 Posted : 14 February 2015 10:30:31(UTC)
TrainIride

France   
Joined: 23/10/2010(UTC)
Posts: 1,904
Location: FRANCE
And more than ten years later, in 1963,

BB10001 was again modified to be able to run on both systems:

25kV 50Hz AC
1500V DC

Best regards
Joël
Offline Wildrose-Wally  
#16 Posted : 14 February 2015 12:21:35(UTC)
Wildrose-Wally

Canada   
Joined: 22/12/2013(UTC)
Posts: 563
Location: Sunny Southern Alberta
The NS 1100 series was based on the four-axle SNCF BB 8001 locomotive and BB 8100 series.
Wildrose-Wally attached the following image(s):
800px-NS_1122-III.jpg
NS_loc_1125.jpg
28_07_85_Tilburg_1141_(13176814885).jpg
1024px-NS_locomotive_1147_at_Eindhoven_in_1985,_hauling_an_InterCity_train.jpg
NS_1116_met_M2_te_Vught;_20-04-1993.jpg
UserPostedImage
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Offline TrainIride  
#17 Posted : 14 February 2015 12:31:16(UTC)
TrainIride

France   
Joined: 23/10/2010(UTC)
Posts: 1,904
Location: FRANCE
Originally Posted by: Wildrose-Wally Go to Quoted Post
The NS 1100 series was based on the four-axle SNCF BB 8001 locomotive and BB 8100 series.



Yes, and you can see on the pics above of BB8051/BB10001 , behind the front SNCF logo, the shape of the NS one !
To build the AC Loco, ALSTOM company used external chassis ans body of NS 1100 serie they were making in the early 1950's

See above

Thank you for the pic and information !

Best Regards
Joël
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