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Offline Tiki734  
#1 Posted : 13 November 2014 12:49:31(UTC)
Tiki734

Australia   
Joined: 13/03/2012(UTC)
Posts: 227
Location: Perth
Hi
Has anyone else seen the E800LMS on the Brockmann auction. Here's you once in a lifetime opportunity. Unfortunately well beyond my budget. It will be interesting to see what it reaches. I suspect you would get a higher price on German eBay
Roger

http://www.brockmann-auk...ware/144/bilder/1530.jpg
It's lot 1530 and the estimate is 10,000 Euros. There are few very rare models in the auction including a HR700A which has the cow catcher.

Here's a question for the forum. Would anyone hazard a guess as to how many E700LMS models were produced and how many have survived. I've seen a few come up in the last 20 years and all in auctions.
Roger
I've just had a look at the final hammer price and it sold for 12500 Euros which is less than I would have expected. I wonder what Koll's current estimate is.
Some other items that sold were a couple of prototype wagons. These were the hand made ones. Never seen them apart from Koll's.
http://www.brockmann-auk...ware/144/bilder/1157.jpg

http://www.brockmann-auk...ware/144/bilder/1156.jpg
The 365 sold for 5600. Euros and the 381 for 6000 Euros. These are as rare as you can get.
Roger

Edited by user 03 December 2014 13:49:31(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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Offline Tiki734  
#2 Posted : 03 December 2014 14:16:02(UTC)
Tiki734

Australia   
Joined: 13/03/2012(UTC)
Posts: 227
Location: Perth
Bit of an update above.
Roger
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Offline Mark_1602  
#3 Posted : 03 December 2014 15:54:56(UTC)
Mark_1602

Luxembourg   
Joined: 24/09/2014(UTC)
Posts: 704
Location: Luxembourg
Hi Roger,

According to the book "Dem Spiel auf der Spur - Mythos Modellbahnen", published by Hatje Cantz Verlag in 2003, only 33 copies of the E 800 LMS were produced for export in 1938. I can't verify that, but one of the editors of that book is Roland Gaugele, who is definitely an expert on the history of the Märklin company.

I've read somewhere that there was also a train set that included the E 800 LMS, but I don't know how many of those were made. I've seen a photo of such a boxed set, which must be extremely rare. It's strange that the price didn't go higher than 12,500 euros at the auction you mention. The 2014 edition of Koll's catalogue says it's worth 23,000, and some years ago the price was even higher!

Best regards, Mark
Best regards, Mark

I like Märklin items produced in the 1960s or early '70s, but also digital locos & current rolling stock.
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Offline Tiki734  
#4 Posted : 04 December 2014 01:19:28(UTC)
Tiki734

Australia   
Joined: 13/03/2012(UTC)
Posts: 227
Location: Perth
Mark
Thanks for the feedback. Wow I can't believe that they would only produce 33 models. I guess in 1938 times were changing so quickly. The auction also had a E800LNER green version made by Ritter. It sold for 1600 Euros so it kept its value.
Do you have any details of the hand made wagons. I know that Koll's mentions them but my German is not that good enough for the detail description.
Does anyone have any details of the original versions. Did they hand produce for a period of time or were they made as sample or prototypes.
Roger
Tiki734 attached the following image(s):
1156.jpg
1157.jpg
Offline CCS800KrokHunter3  
#5 Posted : 04 December 2014 04:45:32(UTC)
CCS800KrokHunter3

United States   
Joined: 03/04/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,605
Hi Roger,

Thanks for posting, I hadn't looked through this auction yet.

The price for the E 800 LMS falls around the current market average. One sold in France perhaps a year ago for about 9,000 Euros I believe. The price on the E 800 LMS has dropped significantly. Models sold several years ago could fetch upwards of 18,000 EUR and I even heard some private dealers had sold some for 30,000 to 40,000 EUR but I don't have a way of verifying this. I wrote an article a while back about my thoughts on the market for Marklin and why prices might fall. Recently I planned to write a follow-up article describing what happened because I believe it is due to what I mentioned in the previous article: fakes and reproductions. Here's the first article: http://marklinstop.com/2...do-they-affect-marklin/. I believe there are many more than just 33 original Marklin E 800 LMS locomotives. I've seen photos of about 20 or so "original" (unverified) examples and I doubt the survival rate could possibly be that high given the supposed original production amount. Especially as a pre-war item and a toy nonetheless.

The wagons are very rare and interesting. You can see under the black paint there is brass which is what most "Vorserie" (pre-series) models would be made out of. The buffers also look like they were turned on a lathe and made possibly out of aluminum. it's not clear how many of these production samples were made. The prices are quite high and I attribute them to being the first 00 scale cars (probably date from early 1930s). Pre-series to the diecast cars introduced right after WWII can be found in the range of 1.000 to 2.000 Euros. Once again these pre-series items are being reproduced and because of their crude nature it's hard to determine if one is original. I do not expect these would hold their value but then again collectors seeking these would do anything to have them.

Paul
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Offline Mark_1602  
#6 Posted : 05 December 2014 08:36:16(UTC)
Mark_1602

Luxembourg   
Joined: 24/09/2014(UTC)
Posts: 704
Location: Luxembourg
Hi Paul,

Your theory that there must have been more than thirty-three E 800 LMS is intriguing and actually convincing, as you have seen 20 of those engines in auctions. Probably some famous collector's items are not as rare as they are commonly thought to be.

'Experts' have told me that there are fewer then 2,000 copies of the 3063, but I think there may be a bit more, especially if you include the second version from the seventies in the count. For a long time, hardly anyone sold a 3063, so demand exceeded supply. My country used to have between 300,000 and 350,000 inhabitants in the 1960s, so at the time there must have been over 10,000 model railroaders here. Märklin was probably more popular than Fleischmann or Trix, so I find it hard to believe that less than 2,000 model railroaders ordered a 3063. In Luxembourg, people were pleased and felt flattered when Märklin produced one of our diesel engines in 1965, so why not buy it? In my opinion, there may be between 2,000 and 3,000 copies, but a lot of those little engines are passed on to the next generation here, so they never appear on the market. Nobody knows the precise figure, of course, so it's just an informed guess.

I checked that figure of thirty-three E 800 LMS in other books as well. 'Märklin: Miroir de son temps', published in Brussels in 2002, says 34 copies, and 'Märklin: Die Legende lebt', published as an official Märklin publication in 2009 and edited by Klaus Eckert, repeats the figure of 33 copies (p.69). Nevertheless, I agree with you that it's hard to believe and impossible to verify. The price used to be as high as 38,000 euros in the 1990s and early 2000s. In 2009, I visited a Märklin dealer in southern Germany because they had a Northlander train set that I ended up buying. The owner introduced me to his associate and mechanic, an elderly man who was a Märklin collector. He told me that he had had an E 800 LMS but that he had sold it at a high price, and he said that one had been sold in Germany for 34,000 euros some years earlier, when prices were still higher.

The E 800 LMS was also sold as part of a train set in the UK, so there might have been more than 33. On the other hand, it's an engine that has a very high collector's value but to which the vast majority of collectors have no emotional attachment. That might explain why it changes hands more often than other collector's models. Germans feel attached to engines like a TT 800 or a G 800, whereas most people from Luxembourg would rather keep a 3063 as family heritage than sell it. It's hard to say, but I think that the temptation to sell the E 800 LMS is generally very high. In addition, there's your convincing argument that the number of reproductions and fakes takes some potential bidders out of the market and reduces prices. Maybe the next economic recession will reveal how rare the E 800 LMS really is ... Cool Cool

Best regards, Mark

P.S. That auction in France which you mention was discussed in a German collector's forum. I've just read that, and they say that the E 800 LMS that was sold for 9,000 euros was not original. At least some key parts had been replaced, which explains the lower price. Here's the link:

E 800 LMS thread
Best regards, Mark

I like Märklin items produced in the 1960s or early '70s, but also digital locos & current rolling stock.
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Offline Mark_1602  
#7 Posted : 05 December 2014 19:49:54(UTC)
Mark_1602

Luxembourg   
Joined: 24/09/2014(UTC)
Posts: 704
Location: Luxembourg
Hi Paul,

I've done a little bit more research into the mysterious E 800 LMS, and that suggests you're right. There must have been a lot more copies of that locomotive for the following reasons:

- Märklin never produced less than a few hundred copies of a product in the past. If that wasn't feasible, the product wasn't manufactured in the first place.
- The E 800 LMS was also sold as part of the E 842 train set, so 33 or 34 copies can't be the correct total.
- According to one thread from a collector's website, only a small minority of pre-war toy trains have survived. If there had originally been a total of 34 copies, only one or two (or maybe a few) would still exist now. Given the number of E 800 LMS that have turned up at auctions, there must have been a few hundred at least, if not more.

Sources:

Alte Modellbahnen Thread

Tischbahn.de Article on E 800 LMS

Best regards, Mark
Best regards, Mark

I like Märklin items produced in the 1960s or early '70s, but also digital locos & current rolling stock.
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Offline gnorfen  
#8 Posted : 01 January 2015 14:28:27(UTC)
gnorfen

Sweden   
Joined: 15/05/2013(UTC)
Posts: 11
Originally Posted by: M-Classics Go to Quoted Post
Hi Paul,

I've done a little bit more research into the mysterious E 800 LMS, and that suggests you're right. There must have been a lot more copies of that locomotive for the following reasons:

- Märklin never produced less than a few hundred copies of a product in the past. If that wasn't feasible, the product wasn't manufactured in the first place.
- The E 800 LMS was also sold as part of the E 842 train set, so 33 or 34 copies can't be the correct total.
- According to one thread from a collector's website, only a small minority of pre-war toy trains have survived. If there had originally been a total of 34 copies, only one or two (or maybe a few) would still exist now. Given the number of E 800 LMS that have turned up at auctions, there must have been a few hundred at least, if not more.

Sources:

Alte Modellbahnen Thread

Tischbahn.de Article on E 800 LMS

Best regards, Mark


Most interesting. Yes I agree that with a resonable survival rate it must be far more. It is also logical that some exists in houses on the attic rusty, and in poor condition.
That 20 or so have been at auction may on the other hand be som examples maybe that has featured on more than one.
Offline gnorfen  
#9 Posted : 01 January 2015 14:40:16(UTC)
gnorfen

Sweden   
Joined: 15/05/2013(UTC)
Posts: 11
Originally Posted by: CCS800KrokHunter3 Go to Quoted Post
Hi Roger,

Thanks for posting, I hadn't looked through this auction yet.

The price for the E 800 LMS falls around the current market average. One sold in France perhaps a year ago for about 9,000 Euros I believe. The price on the E 800 LMS has dropped significantly. Models sold several years ago could fetch upwards of 18,000 EUR and I even heard some private dealers had sold some for 30,000 to 40,000 EUR but I don't have a way of verifying this. I wrote an article a while back about my thoughts on the market for Marklin and why prices might fall. Recently I planned to write a follow-up article describing what happened because I believe it is due to what I mentioned in the previous article: fakes and reproductions. Here's the first article: http://marklinstop.com/2...do-they-affect-marklin/. I believe there are many more than just 33 original Marklin E 800 LMS locomotives. I've seen photos of about 20 or so "original" (unverified) examples and I doubt the survival rate could possibly be that high given the supposed original production amount. Especially as a pre-war item and a toy nonetheless.

The wagons are very rare and interesting. You can see under the black paint there is brass which is what most "Vorserie" (pre-series) models would be made out of. The buffers also look like they were turned on a lathe and made possibly out of aluminum. it's not clear how many of these production samples were made. The prices are quite high and I attribute them to being the first 00 scale cars (probably date from early 1930s). Pre-series to the diecast cars introduced right after WWII can be found in the range of 1.000 to 2.000 Euros. Once again these pre-series items are being reproduced and because of their crude nature it's hard to determine if one is original. I do not expect these would hold their value but then again collectors seeking these would do anything to have them.

Paul


Thanks for your article, much interesting. I personally own a restored ST800 by Ritter, I bought in a hopeless condition, so I thought that I may as well restore it. My feeling abot this is twofold, well a trained collector can easily see that it is restored, but will a collector be able to see that as easy if I drive it a lot and gets natural wear and tear (no deliberate) over a period of 25 years. More difficult at least, especially as the paint might age with sun exposure etc. Well I use it for myself so I do not care if its restored, I simply Think that I drive with it instead, but I would far rather have a original even if the condition was poorer (but not too poor).
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