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Offline sevs  
#1 Posted : 01 August 2012 15:55:17(UTC)
sevs

Norway   
Joined: 30/07/2012(UTC)
Posts: 63
Location: Sunnmøre, Norway
Say, if I have analog power from the catenary, and digital power from the center studs, and connect both the analog adapter and the digital adapter's ground together, will I screw up something then?

Edited by user 28 July 2014 05:56:42(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Regards, Jon Håvard :)
Offline H0  
#2 Posted : 01 August 2012 16:08:30(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
This will work fine ...
... until you accidentally connect centre rail and catenary while both have power (this will most likely kill your digital controller or the booster)
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
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Offline sevs  
#3 Posted : 01 August 2012 17:14:16(UTC)
sevs

Norway   
Joined: 30/07/2012(UTC)
Posts: 63
Location: Sunnmøre, Norway
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
This will work fine ...
... until you accidentally connect centre rail and catenary while both have power (this will most likely kill your digital controller or the booster)


Thanks, Tom
If I have connected centre rail and catenary while only one of them have power, what happens? Laugh
Regards, Jon Håvard :)
Offline H0  
#4 Posted : 01 August 2012 17:26:44(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: sevs Go to Quoted Post
If I have connected centre rail and catenary while only one of them have power, what happens? Laugh
I presume that for a moment, nothing will happen. Then, after a second or so, nothing will continue to happen. Wink
Read more at http://www.brainyquote.c...html#PBlYo8iXFm3Ufmpm.99

But I haven't tried that - and I won't put my controllers at any risk to find out ...

Better turn both off both analogue and digital power before fiddling with rolling stock (especially tin plate stuff) or tools on the layout.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
Offline Ian555  
#5 Posted : 01 August 2012 18:52:17(UTC)
Ian555

Scotland   
Joined: 04/06/2009(UTC)
Posts: 20,235
Location: Scotland
Hi Jon,

I've ran both analog and digital Loco's on my layout for the past 3 years, BUT, they run on totally seperate tracks, both mechanically and electrically.

It's the only safe way to do it.

This way of course you can run both analog and digital Loco's together and directly compare the performance of both against each other.

Ian.
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Offline 5HorizonsRR  
#6 Posted : 01 August 2012 19:08:13(UTC)
5HorizonsRR

United States   
Joined: 05/12/2004(UTC)
Posts: 2,863
Location: CA, USA
I have done 2 layouts now with the following solution, for those who have a few analogue items they want to run from time to time, but are mainly digital operators:

1: On a normal digital layout, I take one loop/line of track and wire it independently from the rest of the layout. The only permanent contact is K83 decoders working the switch motors, and 2-3 switches that join the loop to the main layout- on which with C track I isolate BOTH the hot and ground contacts as a security measure.

2: This leaves a possible ground joint from outer rail to outer rail at the switch, but that is it. (and I'm pretty sure it doesn't really matter anyways)

3: I then have 3 way toggle switches for both hot and ground wires to the isolated line. I use 3 way as I like taking both switches to the "off" position in the center as a security measure before flipping from one current to another. Via these switches I can route power to the rest of the layout, or to an analogue transformer.

It works like a charm, but like Ian recommends it basically just enables a very independent analogue loop on the layout. No trains cross over or anything like that. it does leave the benefit of the K83 keeping digital switch control while you run analogue trains though- which is nice.
SBB Era 2-5
Offline mike c  
#7 Posted : 01 August 2012 19:46:54(UTC)
mike c

Canada   
Joined: 28/11/2007(UTC)
Posts: 7,880
Location: Montreal, QC
If you have both systems connected but only use one at a time, you must ensure that the cables from the layout to each transformer are equipped with a switch to prevent power from one transformer from damaging the other.
If using digital loks on a layout where you also operate analog loks, you must ensure that all analog loks are safely removed or disconnected when powering up with digital. This may also apply to coaches and cars with lighting as they may not be equipped for digital operation.

The safest switch to use would be a switch which would have three positions, one for digital, one for analog and an intermediate one with no power source. This would ensure that there is no accidental power surge when switching from one system to the other.

You may also decide to power the catenary with DC which will enable you to run DC electrics on a Maerklin AC layout.

Good luck
Offline foumaro  
#8 Posted : 01 August 2012 20:45:24(UTC)
foumaro

Greece   
Joined: 08/12/2004(UTC)
Posts: 4,420
Location: Attiki Athens Greece
Originally Posted by: sevs Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
This will work fine ...
... until you accidentally connect centre rail and catenary while both have power (this will most likely kill your digital controller or the booster)


Thanks, Tom
If I have connected centre rail and catenary while only one of them have power, what happens? Laugh


Scared Scared Scared Scared Scared
Offline BR01097  
#9 Posted : 02 August 2012 06:01:02(UTC)
BR01097

United States   
Joined: 17/11/2010(UTC)
Posts: 228
Location: Denver, Colo. USA



I'm not sure Sevs^'s question got answered: to have the digital circuit using the center-rail stud contacts and the catenary wire for analog share a common ground (the tracks) routed back to their respective transformers will not fuck up anything. Accidentally connecting the center studs and the catenary at the same time (to each other, I presume that is what is meant) will cause a short, which may blow out a digital transponder.

Personally, I like the idea of running alternating current through the tracks and direct current in the overhead to power the few HAMO locomotives I own to mimic the various European system and cycle differences. It is the same principal of isolated circuity, also to no adverse effect.


____________________________________________________________________________

Collector of Märklin fine-quality trains since 1966.




Offline cookee_nz  
#10 Posted : 02 August 2012 08:03:31(UTC)
cookee_nz

New Zealand   
Joined: 31/12/2010(UTC)
Posts: 3,948
Location: Paremata, Wellington
Originally Posted by: sevs Go to Quoted Post
Say, if I have analog power from the catenary, and digital power from the center studs, and connect both the analog adapter and the digital adapter's ground together, will I fuck up something then?


Love the highly technical technical analysis of potential failure!! "Fails Unless Constantly Kicked" !!

I actually did this for some time on a former layout some years back - the brown/'ground'/common remained connected all the time, but I was also very particular to keep the Red (Stud&Catenary) wiring very distinctly separate. It enabled me to run some older non-converted Loco's along with the Digital ones, in fact against the common advice I used the overhead for Digital and the stud for Diesels & Steam. I had no problems with the Digital off the overhead but at that time I had all older style decoders as well - 6080 & 6090 which seemed quite happy with it, but I understand the potential problems with some of the newer decoders that are more sensitive to the possible erratic contact made by the pantograph.

Keep those Reds away from each other, and above all else, don't cross the beams, keep out of the nebula, and always keep the flux capacitor loaded to capacity, you never really know when you are going to need 1.21 Gigawatts in a hurry!!

Cheers

Cookee
Cookee
Wellington
NZ image
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Offline sevs  
#11 Posted : 03 August 2012 16:21:50(UTC)
sevs

Norway   
Joined: 30/07/2012(UTC)
Posts: 63
Location: Sunnmøre, Norway
Thanks, everyone! :D
Regards, Jon Håvard :)
Offline Piete  
#12 Posted : 07 October 2023 05:25:17(UTC)
Piete

Australia   
Joined: 28/03/2022(UTC)
Posts: 8
Location: Melbourne VIC
Originally Posted by: BR01097 Go to Quoted Post



I'm not sure Sevs^'s question got answered: to have the digital circuit using the center-rail stud contacts and the catenary wire for analog share a common ground (the tracks) routed back to their respective transformers will not fuck up anything. Accidentally connecting the center studs and the catenary at the same time (to each other, I presume that is what is meant) will cause a short, which may blow out a digital transponder.




Great to read the experiences above. So I have an MS1 (60652) which is powered by a Marklin 16V AC transformer via the digital adaptor "ugly box" (60115). That works fine for digital locos on an Mtrack layout. I would like to run analogue locos from the catenary and the two systems would share the track as a common ground. (I also noted above not to accidentally connect the centre rail with the catenary when putting on metal carriages etc).
The question is, can I use the same 16V AC transformer to supply the catenary (analogue locos) and to supply the digital system via the digital adaptor?
Does the digital adaptor (60115) have some kind of floating transformer with a switch mode power supply or does it only use a bridge rectifier? If it is the latter, I think that my proposal to use the same transformer for both systems may not work, because a part of the rectifier in the adaptor would be short-circuited because of the shared ground?
Similarly, can I use that same transformer to supply my Mtrack points and signals because these also use the track as a common ground for the lights.
Or would I encounter the same problem?
Offline BenP  
#13 Posted : 07 October 2023 06:05:14(UTC)
BenP

United States   
Joined: 04/02/2021(UTC)
Posts: 344
Location: Michigan, Ann Arbor
Quote:

Great to read the experiences above. So I have an MS1 (60652) which is powered by a Marklin 16V AC transformer via the digital adaptor "ugly box" (60115). That works fine for digital locos on an Mtrack layout. I would like to run analogue locos from the catenary and the two systems would share the track as a common ground. (I also noted above not to accidentally connect the centre rail with the catenary when putting on metal carriages etc).
The question is, can I use the same 16V AC transformer to supply the catenary (analogue locos) and to supply the digital system via the digital adaptor?
Does the digital adaptor (60115) have some kind of floating transformer with a switch mode power supply or does it only use a bridge rectifier? If it is the latter, I think that my proposal to use the same transformer for both systems may not work, because a part of the rectifier in the adaptor would be short-circuited because of the shared ground?
Similarly, can I use that same transformer to supply my Mtrack points and signals because these also use the track as a common ground for the lights.
Or would I encounter the same problem?


I assume that digital power uses 16V AC yellow and brown connects, while variable analog AC uses red and brown connects of white transformer. While yellow and red are separated (ground is shared), i would not use one transformer for two different systems. Track shorts and rolling stock power demand may cause damaging problems.

Digital M (+ some K) track layout with mostly vintage rolling stock and accessories, and small Z scale layout.
https://youtube.com/play...0kgVYbh0CeDTF-bYXoD_2-V9
Offline marklinist5999  
#14 Posted : 07 October 2023 14:18:55(UTC)
marklinist5999

United States   
Joined: 10/02/2021(UTC)
Posts: 3,075
Location: Michigan, Troy
I>M>H>Opinion, experimenting with too many different power connections, and trying to divide, or separate a layout, signals, and or tirnouts, can result in severe shorts and spikes which can damage digital controllers. Especially newer ones like a CS2, CS3, MS2, etc. which use switched mode power supplies. Mixing these with older conventional tranmsformers is asking for trouble.
If a short circuit doesn't trip the controller saftey quick enough, damage can occur to them, and locomotve decoders.
Offline bph  
#15 Posted : 07 October 2023 17:13:55(UTC)
bph

Norway   
Joined: 04/08/2018(UTC)
Posts: 985
Originally Posted by: Piete Go to Quoted Post
Great to read the experiences above. So I have an MS1 (60652) which is powered by a Marklin 16V AC transformer via the digital adaptor "ugly box" (60115). That works fine for digital locos on an Mtrack layout. I would like to run analogue locos from the catenary and the two systems would share the track as a common ground. (I also noted above not to accidentally connect the centre rail with the catenary when putting on metal carriages etc).
The question is, can I use the same 16V AC transformer to supply the catenary (analogue locos) and to supply the digital system via the digital adaptor?
Does the digital adaptor (60115) have some kind of floating transformer with a switch mode power supply or does it only use a bridge rectifier? If it is the latter, I think that my proposal to use the same transformer for both systems may not work, because a part of the rectifier in the adaptor would be short-circuited because of the shared ground?

Märklin answers this question with yes in the 03092 book, ref page 167. And also back in 1998, in this publication, see Q and A section on page 78:
https://www.3rotaie.it/Cataloghi/Marklin_Insider_-_Marklin_Digital.pdf
However I would be very careful, and to be sure, send Marklin support an email and ask if it is possible with your equipment. (personally, I would not do it because of the risks)
https://www.hovland.net/bilder/mj/Mix_analog_digital.jpg

Originally Posted by: Piete Go to Quoted Post
Similarly, can I use that same transformer to supply my Mtrack points and signals because these also use the track as a common ground for the lights.
Or would I encounter the same problem?
a wiring example for older cs2/1 etc:
https://www.hovland.net/bilder/mj/wiring_dig_analog.jpg
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Offline Piete  
#16 Posted : 08 October 2023 06:31:57(UTC)
Piete

Australia   
Joined: 28/03/2022(UTC)
Posts: 8
Location: Melbourne VIC
Originally Posted by: bph Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Piete Go to Quoted Post
Great to read the experiences above. So I have an MS1 (60652) which is powered by a Marklin 16V AC transformer via the digital adaptor "ugly box" (60115). That works fine for digital locos on an Mtrack layout. I would like to run analogue locos from the catenary and the two systems would share the track as a common ground. (I also noted above not to accidentally connect the centre rail with the catenary when putting on metal carriages etc).
The question is, can I use the same 16V AC transformer to supply the catenary (analogue locos) and to supply the digital system via the digital adaptor?
Does the digital adaptor (60115) have some kind of floating transformer with a switch mode power supply or does it only use a bridge rectifier? If it is the latter, I think that my proposal to use the same transformer for both systems may not work, because a part of the rectifier in the adaptor would be short-circuited because of the shared ground?

Märklin answers this question with yes in the 03092 book, ref page 167. And also back in 1998, in this publication, see Q and A section on page 78:
https://www.3rotaie.it/Cataloghi/Marklin_Insider_-_Marklin_Digital.pdf
However I would be very careful, and to be sure, send Marklin support an email and ask if it is possible with your equipment. (personally, I would not do it because of the risks)
https://www.hovland.net/bilder/mj/Mix_analog_digital.jpg

Originally Posted by: Piete Go to Quoted Post
Similarly, can I use that same transformer to supply my Mtrack points and signals because these also use the track as a common ground for the lights.
Or would I encounter the same problem?
a wiring example for older cs2/1 etc:
https://www.hovland.net/bilder/mj/wiring_dig_analog.jpg


Hi Thanks for the reply. I understand that I can have a digital rail system and an analogue catenary system. But this was not my question. My question is if both systems run off the same transformer? I suspect not because since posting I checked with a multi-meter to see if the brown ground output from the AC transformer is the same voltage as the ground going to the digital track and it is not. Furthermore the diagram shows 2 transformers with neither the active or ground connected.

But I am now also wondering if I can operate Mtrack points/turnouts with the digital power supplying the track, given that it is always on or could this possibly interfere with the digital decoders?
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Offline bph  
#17 Posted : 08 October 2023 16:12:10(UTC)
bph

Norway   
Joined: 04/08/2018(UTC)
Posts: 985
Originally Posted by: Piete Go to Quoted Post

Hi Thanks for the reply. I understand that I can have a digital rail system and an analogue catenary system. But this was not my question. My question is if both systems run off the same transformer? I suspect not because since posting I checked with a multi-meter to see if the brown ground output from the AC transformer is the same voltage as the ground going to the digital track and it is not. Furthermore the diagram shows 2 transformers with neither the active or ground connected.

But I am now also wondering if I can operate Mtrack points/turnouts with the digital power supplying the track, given that it is always on or could this possibly interfere with the digital decoders?

Hi
how it is rectified might be a valid point, so check with Märklin before you try anything.
But also take a look at picture #8 on page 9, in the above PDF, there you can see that the "track" ground is connected to the "transformer" ground. And page 71 in the Märklin catenary manual
Voltage differences do happen, eg if you power a 60175 booster with a transformer you can get a higher track voltage, compared to what the cs3 outputs when powered with a normal 19v power supply. and according to Marklin support it works ok to connect those two track grounds together....

I powered my analogue m-track turnouts etc for some years using the same transformer that powered the 6021. (just make sure you don't risk making a short between transformer yellow and track red, and if you are using more transformers make sure they have the same polarity)


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Offline H0  
#18 Posted : 08 October 2023 19:25:21(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: Piete Go to Quoted Post
The question is, can I use the same 16V AC transformer to supply the catenary (analogue locos) and to supply the digital system via the digital adaptor?
Don't do this, this will destroy the MS1.
There cannot be a common ground between the input side and the output side of any Mobile Station or any digital controller that uses an H bridge on the output side.
This setup was possible with the 6020/6021 and 6604/66045.

Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
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Offline Piete  
#19 Posted : 13 October 2023 10:34:07(UTC)
Piete

Australia   
Joined: 28/03/2022(UTC)
Posts: 8
Location: Melbourne VIC
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Piete Go to Quoted Post
The question is, can I use the same 16V AC transformer to supply the catenary (analogue locos) and to supply the digital system via the digital adaptor?
Don't do this, this will destroy the MS1.
There cannot be a common ground between the input side and the output side of any Mobile Station or any digital controller that uses an H bridge on the output side.
This setup was possible with the 6020/6021 and 6604/66045.



Thanks for the clarification. I am now also wondering if I can operate Mtrack points/turnouts with the digital power supplying the track using a 7072 analogue controller, given that it is always on or could this possibly interfere with the digital decoders and MS1?
Offline BenP  
#20 Posted : 17 October 2023 14:54:38(UTC)
BenP

United States   
Joined: 04/02/2021(UTC)
Posts: 344
Location: Michigan, Ann Arbor
Originally Posted by: Piete Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Piete Go to Quoted Post
The question is, can I use the same 16V AC transformer to supply the catenary (analogue locos) and to supply the digital system via the digital adaptor?
Don't do this, this will destroy the MS1.
There cannot be a common ground between the input side and the output side of any Mobile Station or any digital controller that uses an H bridge on the output side.
This setup was possible with the 6020/6021 and 6604/66045.



Thanks for the clarification. I am now also wondering if I can operate Mtrack points/turnouts with the digital power supplying the track using a 7072 analogue controller, given that it is always on or could this possibly interfere with the digital decoders and MS1?


Seems to me that you are better off connecting the turnouts to the yellow-brown of an AC transformer with 7072 box. This powers the switch light and controls solenoid separate from digital track power, and lowers power draw. (You can use red-brown of that AC transformer for scenery incandescents)

Added: this does require shared track ground between AC and digital, which others seem to discourage.

Edited by user 18 October 2023 13:45:35(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Digital M (+ some K) track layout with mostly vintage rolling stock and accessories, and small Z scale layout.
https://youtube.com/play...0kgVYbh0CeDTF-bYXoD_2-V9
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