Hi Marco,
sorry for the lights. When i checked the loco, the bulbs burned. But it is a known problem with these bulbs, that they have no contact when the loco was moved!
But it seems I need new glasses, I saw no rubber tyres on the loco and put new on the wheels - not recocknizing that rubber tyres were fitted.
SORRY
Wolf

Paul,

this slider from teh photo was produced between 1953-1959.

The TM 800 was first produced in 1949-1952 = Loop coupling
1953-1956 = Rubbertyres
1957-1958 = Relex coupling
1971-1974 = Kit version

Hi Marco,

Great looking Loco.

Ian.

Thank you for this great information.
Marklin calls it 'Neoprene' tires, that is synthetic rubber.

The tires on my new loco are white / light yellow, and hard.
Looks more like nylon.

Edited by user 02 August 2012 11:33:25(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Hi Ian,

Thank you!

Marco

Hi Marco,
I am very sorry - Paul is correct - and I need definitely new glasses!
You will get an email from me to solve this.
Regards Wolf

Very nice TM800, Marco.

Hi Stephen and Hi Chris,

Thank you !!

Marco


PS: Now Paul has discovered that the box is a forgery, the so-called construction date 02/1953 of the locomotive would also not be correct .......

Hi Wolf,

Yes, I have received your mail, thanks.
I will answer it today.

Marco

Marco,

When it comes to collecting part of the joy is that it is personal and about what appeals to you as an individual.

I think you have purchased a great example loco, which I hope will bring you years of pleasure.

It looks like it runs well, which to me is more important than the box.

Happy collecting

BR

Glenn

I think it's alright with a replica box, better than no box at all... The general public won't see the differences anyway...

HaHa. I find ''replica'' the wrong word.
Replica sounds better, but the box is a forgery.
Do you call counterfeit money also a replica ?



The issue with the box is very correct solved by Wolf with a good compensation !!

Marco

Hi Wolf,

Wolf, thanks again for the very correct manner of solving the box issue !!

Marco

Hi Marco,

Very good research on your Loco.

Ian.

Hi Marco,
you have found the construction period of the switch unit, but not the construction date of the loco!!!
Your loco has the coupling system K 7, Märklin started with this coupling system in 1957.
Maybe this loco is from 1957, or it is an earlier one in case the old BK 4.2 was exchanged with K 7.
I don't care of the exact date of a loco, in that post-war time material was rare and old parts were mixed with new ones.
Wolf

Fascinating debate in all respects, but I think some clarification of the terms used is important. Apologies to those for whom English is not their first language, I am not intending to be 'picky' in this regard.

Although 'Replica' and 'Fake/Forgery' may appear to be very similar, in this context we have to look at the intent of producing it in the first place. And also the item itself. If the item has a face value by it's very nature (ie money, stocks, bonds, stamps etc) then reproductions would almost always be forgeries.

If the item is a 'reproduction' (replica) and is made available with full disclosure of that, then it is 100% legitimate and has its place in the market.

But if the production of the item is intended to be passed off as the 'real thing' (or part of it) then that is entirely a different matter. That would be a forgery and quite illegal.

Even money can be made as a replica (such as used in movie props etc) but is usually clearly marked or identified in such a way as to be easily spotted as such.

Where it becomes more shady is where one purchaser obtains a loco with a replica box and he is told it is a replica and pays an appropriate price, but then resells the loco and box and does not tell the next purchaser that the box is a replica, he is being dishonest. The box itself really is still a replica because it was produced honestly.

But if someone was to start producing these boxes and selling them to 'traders' for the purpose of repacking items without boxes but with the intention of saying they are boxed and original, then that would also be dishonest.

It becomes a very murky area indeed. If you are a true collector who prizes authentic originality then you will (or should) already be aware of the risks of fakes and do the required research.

One area that puzzles me a little is the printing of the date stamps. To make them so close to original that only an expert could tell is fairly dubious. A genuine 'replica' sold to compliment an item where the original box was long-lost is ok, but perhaps the date stamp should reflect this - a discrete "R2005" or whatever year it was printed would make it obvious it was not original, but would still add value rather than no box at all?

And for that matter, is the use of the Märklin diamond & bicycle logo authorised? - probably not. over 50 years since those boxes were used, does copyright still even exist?

Keep the debates coming - I love it.

Cheers

Cookee
NZ

Edited by user 06 August 2012 04:46:19(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

For those who might be interested, the topic of boxes has come up many times on this forum including a most excellent article on making your own.

It possibly deserves a topic in its own right or even a 'sticky' but I'll post some of the links here to try to get them together - if anyone knows of others, please add.

http://www.3rotaie.it/3r_Documenti/Scatola_Replica.htm#English - make your own boxes - VERY INFORMATIVE

http://www.marklin-users.net/forum/yaf_postst19095_Little-boxes.aspx - previous topic

http://www.m-users.net/forum/yaf_postst20748findunread_Pre-war-boxes-and--corner--staples.aspx#post311476 - another previous topic

The two above topics also contain links to each other but I'm keeping it simple. If I think of any others I'll add them.

And of course I cannot miss an opportunity for a self-plug - my own somewhat-related article on a different style of box

Enjoy

Cookee
NZ

Hi Cookee,

Wow !!!
Thanks for that fantastic links.


Marco

PS: I also agree with the previous debate on counterfeits !!

Hi Cookee,

So you also can read/speak/write german?
The discussion is here:

http://alte-modellbahnen...aerklin-Users-Forum.html

Marco

Hi Marco, many times, over many years I had made attempts to learn German, but sadly it needs constant practise to learn, and even more to become (and remain) fluent. But even if you learn 'German', that's ok for conversation, but when it comes to technical topics it's like learning yet another language again.

For many years I had thought the only way would be for me to live in Germany, total immersion and learn the language that way. I also considered how wonderful it might be to have a German-speaking girlfriend/wife, (but I am very happy with the non-German-speaking wife that I already have)

So, sadly I now rely largely on automatic translation - and I have to say, they are generally quite good, certainly enough that you can follow what is being discussed.

It seems to me from that discussion there is support for both sides. One says the files are easily accessible anyway, (even if you have to be registered - for free), and what is all the fuss about?

The other side says that the information is confidential - well perhaps not so much confidential but more that it was intended only for a smaller group of interested enthusiasts.

If I understand it correctly, it seems the main gripe is the feeling that the articles (via the links) were just blindly copied without any reference or acknowledgement to the author.

Unfortunately, because the links are now gone, I cannot see the original articles. They have been re-hosted but I don't have time to go searching for them tonight. Do the articles make it clear who is the original Author? If so, then it is less of a problem. But if it is not obvious who was the Author, then I guess it could be implied that the person who posts the links is claiming credit for the information, and of course we would never do such a thing - we are all gentlemen here

Your apology to them is sincere and will go a long way toward calming the waters.

Cheers

Cookee

Hi Cookee,

Thanks for your story, I liked it!
The German language is indeed rather difficult to learn.

In the 2nd world war my father was just like any Dutch young man arrested and sent to forced labor in the German war factories, the so called “Arbeitseinsatz”. He was treated badly and came back home with a war syndrome.
I was born 20 years later (1966) but in my childhood the best thing to do was not to mention the war or the Germans or Germany.
The only big exception was that we had a German Trix Express layout and lots of German model railway magazines at home !!

I like your thinking.

Now we have a REALLY practical use for them rather than knitting endless baby booties and hats.

Sounds like good physical therapy to me, keeps the fingers active, win-win all round

Now, where do we place our orders...?

Cheers

Cookee